Quiet and strong podcast cover for episode 97 - Finding Career Success as an Introvert with Janice Chaka

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Are you an introvert who’s looking for a career that suits your personality?

Join David and HR expert Janice Chaka, AKA the Career Introvert, for a deep dive into careers and introversion.  We’ll learn more about work environments that help introverts thrive, how having or being a great manager can make for better and more productive employees, discuss the four different types of imposter syndrome and how to overcome them, and the ins and outs of remote and hybrid jobs for introverts.

Listen now to discover how your work environment can help you be more successful as an introvert.

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Janice Chaka is a respected international HR professional, virtual business owner, introvert and impostor syndrome coach, and professional podcaster. Long before “working remote” was hip, she confidently led a remote recruiting team. Known as the Career Introvert, Janice excels at solving complex HR challenges, managing emotions, and setting boundaries as an introvert — Janice has mastered the art of leveraging introvert strengths to build a thriving virtual business in a global market. As a result, she is a sought-after author and speaker for digital summits on introversion, virtual work, and mental health.

Visit Janice’s Website: https://thecareerintrovert.com/

Follow Janice on Socials: 
Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter

– – –

Contact the host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast: 

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com

Gobio.link/quietandstrong

david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts

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Podcast Transcript

00;00;00;17 – 00;00;19;08
Janice Chaka
Don’t be afraid to ask for what you want, because no one’s going to do it for you, unfortunately. And we still have to do a lot of explaining as introverts. Like, it’s not like even you mentioned like it’s not like I love you all, but like I just need this time. And sometimes you have to say two or three times, like, it’s not personal.

00;00;19;08 – 00;00;37;18
Janice Chaka
It’s not a thing. I just if you want me to function at my best, this is what I need. And you can tell me what you need to function at your best. And we’ll, like, come to a happy medium or like whatever it might be.

00;00;38;26 – 00;01;02;18
David Hall
Hello and welcome to episode 97 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall, and the creator of Quiet and Strong. It’s a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced normally will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform.

00;01;03;16 – 00;01;31;28
David Hall
Leave me a review. That would mean a lot to me. Tell the friend about the podcast. Help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Dennis Chalker is a respected international H.R. professional virtual business owner, introvert and imposter syndrome coach and professional podcaster. Long before a working remote was hip, she confidently led a remote recruiting team known as the career introvert.

00;01;32;06 – 00;01;58;15
David Hall
Janice excels at solving complex H.R. challenges, managing emotions and setting boundaries as an introvert. Dennis has mastered the art of leveraging introvert strengths to build a thriving virtual business in a global market. As a result, she is a sought after author and speaker for digital summits on introversion, virtual work and mental health. All right. I am very excited for my guest, Janice.

00;01;58;21 – 00;02;00;29
David Hall
Janice, welcome to the Quite Strong podcast.

00;02;01;28 – 00;02;05;25
Janice Chaka
Oh, thank you very much. I’ve been following for a little while, but this exciting.

00;02;06;10 – 00;02;35;27
David Hall
Great. And I was talking with Janice. I’ve. I’ve been following her work, and we’ve been connected for a while now, probably ever since I started blogging. And we both spoke at the same quietly influential summit. And then Janice, who’s put on a lot of online summits herself, asked me to present at one. And I think it was the same summit that she gave a presentation on podcasting, which really I give her credit for helping me get this podcast started because she made it sound very easy and like something I should do.

00;02;35;27 – 00;02;37;09
David Hall
So thank you for that, Janice.

00;02;39;01 – 00;02;53;11
Janice Chaka
And when I. I actually impressed that I influenced someone to let them go and start. Think because you put stuff out into the ether and you never hear anything, right? You never hear the feedback. So it’s really nice for someone to to let you know that. That you made a difference.

00;02;53;28 – 00;03;09;00
David Hall
Yeah, well, thank you. So, anyway, Janice has been a long term advocate and champion for introverts, so we’re going to get into all that. And of course, Janice, we would like to hear more about you. How did you figure out your introvert and how did you embrace that?

00;03;10;03 – 00;03;31;17
Janice Chaka
So way back in the day. I was living in Mexico and I was working for a tech company and I was a recruiter. And I would I made sure that I lived like 5 minutes walk away from work and I would go home for lunch and nap. I wouldn’t eat. I would knock and then walk and come back to work.

00;03;31;29 – 00;03;53;02
Janice Chaka
And then there was holidays and people would like decorate my cubicle, which got for lunch with me. And I thought it was a culture issue. I thought it was a me being British shouldn’t be served and all of that sort of a thing. Having a culture clash with Mexico who very much don’t do the reserve thing and then what about family?

00;03;53;02 – 00;04;17;14
Janice Chaka
And then embracing everything. And I thought maybe I had an issue with culture. I then came across the book quite by Susan Cain. And it’s one of those things where you read the book and you’re nodding on nodding. You’re like, Oh, oh, that’s why my parents did that, or that’s why I acted this way. And so that’s how I discovered Figure it Out, that I was probably more introvert leaning.

00;04;17;14 – 00;04;35;15
Janice Chaka
I didn’t even really know about the word when I picked, you know, I don’t even know why I picked it. But it’s been a while. But yeah, I find myself nodding and agreeing with the statement and then I did a little bit more research on it, and that’s how I kind of figured out that. I’m definitely more on the introvert leaning side of things.

00;04;37;00 – 00;04;41;08
David Hall
All right. And then how did you embrace it? How did you figure out it was straight?

00;04;42;05 – 00;05;06;11
Janice Chaka
How did I embrace it? It’s been an ongoing journey. I don’t think I have embraced it, but it’s still I ended up mapping out purposefully when we moved, we moved offices. So I’d go and like take my friend’s car keys and then I’m not going to work. I can go home. I have picked jobs or work to do where I get to do a lot of solo work.

00;05;07;08 – 00;05;33;04
Janice Chaka
It’s been better when I’m working for myself because now I definitely can speak up for myself and say why I need the things that I need and how I need the things that I need and that it is not a negative. I know when I first started to read about introversion, there was this thing in the Cambridge dictionary and I had a little mini campaign about them because it said like loner and very negative wording about introversion.

00;05;33;04 – 00;05;57;28
Janice Chaka
And so I had this that would be like a Kickstarter campaign, like an email signature that likes to like make some change because it was also negative. And anything that you have extrovert was very positive. So it just helped me speak out more and, and ask for what I needed. And I’m therefore it worked for me. I got more productive the more that I asked for what I needed and accepted what I needed.

00;05;59;12 – 00;06;12;28
Janice Chaka
And so I guess that’s how I embraced it. Now I wear T-shirts and obviously I have company under that name. Yeah, I think that’s well, how I would say that I have embraced it, so to speak.

00;06;14;00 – 00;06;26;05
David Hall
Yeah. And that’s what it’s all about is, you know, you found out this is where I shine. This is these are what my needs are. What are your specific strengths or maybe some strengths you’ve seen in other introverts?

00;06;26;18 – 00;06;47;01
Janice Chaka
A lot of my clients tend to put other people first. That can be a strength or to the detriment of them. And a lot of the times, putting other people first before their introverted needs is kind of like, I will do back to back meetings, I will do all of these things. I will work late, I won’t take time for creativity.

00;06;48;03 – 00;07;13;09
Janice Chaka
And only then when they kind of push back and get their needs met, do they they’re still people pleasers, but like with boundaries, I found one of the strengths is once an introvert accepts what they need and rolls with it and asks for it and gets that they are more able to help others see see that that is not a bad thing.

00;07;14;06 – 00;07;50;25
Janice Chaka
Listening. We always get told the introverts great listeners because we we listen more than we talk. I don’t think it’s necessarily introvert like skills per say that are better or worse than others. It’s just individual personalities and baggage that we have and how we bring it up and culture and family. And there’s a lot that goes into humans, but definitely sort of listening, critical thinking, not not going ahead and doing something fast without thought would be some of the things that I would I would say are positive skills.

00;07;51;13 – 00;08;01;04
David Hall
Absolutely. And you mentioned some of our needs. How does the introvert not be such a people pleaser and set some boundaries when they need to?

00;08;01;26 – 00;08;27;05
Janice Chaka
It’s hard, I would say, and think, how would they go about it is trial and error. That’s that’s what it tends to be. You can do it a lot of time or put it on energy audit where you spend a week and you just write down like when you’re feeling tired or when you’re feeling energized and it tends to correlate with the tasks that you’re doing.

00;08;27;11 – 00;08;49;12
Janice Chaka
So some tasks might energy, some tasks might train you, some tasks might be like net zero and just tracking that for a certain amount of time and then adjusting your life to that can be helpful as well as being open to trying things. Maybe you think you’re a morning person, but then you realize that you do your best work between five and eight.

00;08;49;28 – 00;09;05;11
Janice Chaka
It’s like everyone’s different, not making assumptions about yourself and just going and being curious and learning and gathering data and then doing something with that data that’s nothing worse than like tracking something for X amount of time and then not doing anything with the data that you’ve discovered.

00;09;06;11 – 00;09;24;04
David Hall
Yeah, and that’s another gift we have is we’re reflective so we can, you know, if we give ourselves that time to think about, okay, what do I need to manage my energy or what do I need to make the best? You know, I like that you said even giving us time to be creative because that’s something that’s really important.

00;09;24;19 – 00;09;37;13
David Hall
You know, a lot of times I hear people say, well, we as introverts, we need to recharge. And that’s very important. We need time to recharge. We also need time to think and make plans, be creative, focus. There’s a lot of reasons why we need that alone time.

00;09;38;17 – 00;10;00;00
Janice Chaka
Yes, for sure. And and that’s why I think I mentioned earlier, like back to back meetings suck because you go from one meeting to another, you don’t have time to digest the meeting that you’re in and like write notes on what you to do. So from that meeting and then you’re straight away into another meeting and you have no time to prepare mindset or otherwise for that new meeting and changing.

00;10;00;00 – 00;10;05;01
Janice Chaka
You think it’s just anyone, never mind introverts, just folks, humans. That’s not like a great way to live.

00;10;05;26 – 00;10;32;16
David Hall
Right? Right. And, you know, everybody has different control of their calendar. So you mentioned, you know, you do best when you’re working for yourself. I know that I try to avoid back to back meetings and people can schedule meetings for me. I schedule scheduling for myself, I schedule and for others. They can schedule for me. But as I start to see, you know, where they are becoming back to back, I do try to like block off some time in between here and there and and there’s ways we can do that kind of thing too.

00;10;33;17 – 00;10;54;05
Janice Chaka
Yeah, that’s one thing. I’m not, I’m not paid for that. But there is definitely a calendar that I use that it says, would you like to block of 50 minutes before and after this call? I’m like, Yes, I would. So people just like call those that can book, book like back to back meetings. There are some something that I don’t mind, but again, it really depends.

00;10;54;05 – 00;10;57;05
Janice Chaka
Some tasks or some meetings are more draining than others.

00;10;58;10 – 00;11;16;09
David Hall
Yeah, yeah. I’ll have to look into that automation would be good. So like even with the podcast, you know, the calendar I’ll schedule and then I have to remember to put some time before and after. So I don’t have back to back guests, you know, and I definitely don’t want to rush anybody or, you know, I might need some time in between, so I’ll have to look for that automation.

00;11;16;09 – 00;11;29;23
David Hall
That sounds cool. So we talk about on this podcast, we talk about strengths and needs like we are right now and also we bust myths. Is there a myth or two about introversion that you want to dispel today.

00;11;31;09 – 00;11;33;28
Janice Chaka
When you said that bust myths I had like this mental image of.

00;11;34;25 – 00;11;35;00
David Hall
Like.

00;11;35;10 – 00;11;59;27
Janice Chaka
A cartoon character busting a myth. I don’t think it’s a myth per say, but definitely I always get people like He’ll talk to me that never met me, that maybe for the first time they’ll talk to me. And then, you know, the conversation will come up about introversion and that. But you don’t seem like an introvert and it’s very much like, So what do I need a tattoo?

00;11;59;28 – 00;12;29;07
Janice Chaka
Do I need to be around? Like, what is that that you think that you can spot an introvert, like In the Wild by talking to them for 5 minutes or not? Just. Just surveying the landscape. There’s nothing that stands out that visually that makes you say that person’s an introvert specifically when you’re out networking or just out in the wild.

00;12;29;12 – 00;12;49;17
Janice Chaka
So a myth, I guess, would be is you can’t just spot an introvert. I mean, I get it. Your folks are in the corner meeting at a party. But like generally speaking, if you talk to someone for 5 minutes, just because they might be charismatic or in your mind gregarious doesn’t mean that they are not an introvert. And and if someone tells you they are, don’t doubt them.

00;12;50;01 – 00;12;53;14
Janice Chaka
Don’t be like, oh, sure, that’s sucky.

00;12;53;27 – 00;13;15;09
David Hall
Yeah, I relate to that and I think that’s part of the reason why there’s still lots of myths because you can’t see what’s inside of someone’s mind, you can’t see their preferences, you can’t see that you are and I are drifting more into our imaginations than not. You can’t you can’t see all that. And I gave a speech the other day and someone afterwards said, Oh, you did a great job.

00;13;15;09 – 00;13;33;15
David Hall
I you were you were so enthusiastic, but you’re an introvert. I’m like, Yeah, we could be a pessimistic. We’re deep thinkers. That’s why we have that’s why we like to talk. But, you know, we could be enthusiastic. So it is that is a good myth because just it keeps the other myths going. I go with that half of us are introverts.

00;13;33;15 – 00;13;37;13
David Hall
And so there are some very confident and outspoken introverts. I know.

00;13;38;27 – 00;14;06;21
Janice Chaka
Yeah. And I think one of the problems with with any myth is there’s not enough visible stories out there of interest during X, Y, Z, A, B, L for various reasons or the ones that we do get like, oh, well, yes, that multibillionaire. I’m not just, you know, Joe Block’s next door kind of a thing. Right? Right. Yeah.

00;14;07;23 – 00;14;32;11
David Hall
Yeah, that’s true. It’s always like, here’s some famous introverts and that’s nice. It’s good to see. But at the same time, half of us are introverts. And so there’s many examples. We’re working with introverts or we’re introverts ourselves all day long, and it’s just you can’t judge by behavior. You have to really get to know a person and know their strengths and needs, and I think that’s a really good one.

00;14;33;16 – 00;14;54;00
Janice Chaka
I had another myth in my head just now that I’m not all introverts at the same right. It’s like, Well, my introvert son does this, this and this. It’s like, okay, well, you work for me on that one, but that’s great. They’re they’re only human. We’re all individual. That’s fine. So I will. Yeah. Yeah, because one.

00;14;54;20 – 00;15;18;12
David Hall
I think I knew why I do this work is because there are some major factors between introverts and extroverts, and I think that those need to be addressed. But at the same time, like you’re saying, our personalities are multifaceted. And I do hear people paint some things with the broad brush. Like, for example, I am more of a thinker than a feeler, you know, and some people are more empathic.

00;15;18;12 – 00;15;38;02
David Hall
They feel the feelings of others. Neither is good or bad. But some people might paint the picture that all introverts are more feelers and empathic. And I mean, I’m an introvert, but that’s not the case for me. I didn’t choose it, but it’s something I need to understand. And but definitely a person could be highly sensitive and be an introvert or extrovert.

00;15;38;28 – 00;15;56;12
David Hall
But again, but not all introverts are highly sensitive. And so we just got to get to know all those things about ourselves and about each other. And I like that, too. It’s I don’t like it, but it’s a good one too. But it’s a good we’re not all the same. You know, there are some commonalities we can learn from.

00;15;56;12 – 00;16;12;06
David Hall
You know, if you are a highly sensitive person, you can learn a lot from a fellow, highly sensitive person. You know, that kind of thing, or I’m not. But I can get to know highly sensitive people in my life and be able to embrace who they are and and help them with their gifts and strengths. And in that kind of thing.

00;16;12;06 – 00;16;18;05
David Hall
So those are a couple of really good ones. Janice, when did you start calling yourself the career introvert?

00;16;19;08 – 00;16;39;07
Janice Chaka
Now, I saw this question in advance. Yeah. Thank you so much for setting the questions in advance. Any appreciated. And I was like, I heard gung ho and I had to go and look at my LinkedIn profile and be like when I only because it started off as like the company company name and then I sort of embraced is like that.

00;16;39;12 – 00;17;04;10
Janice Chaka
That’s how people know me name because someone came up to me and called me that and I was like, Oh, okay, well, I guess this is a thing. I didn’t realize it was a thing. I got the date 2013 written down, but I’ll go 100% sure. Yes, a while ago that also shocked me. I was like, oh, wait, that’s almost is that ten years next to me?

00;17;04;12 – 00;17;04;20
Janice Chaka
Like.

00;17;06;01 – 00;17;18;14
David Hall
Wow, yeah, that sounds right. Because like I said, I think I’ve known I’ve known about you since I started blogging. I start blog in 2014. So yeah, I’ve always nine years to career introverts it sounds right.

00;17;18;14 – 00;17;22;05
Janice Chaka
Okay. So I guess next journey to some kind of like ten year celebration thing.

00;17;22;16 – 00;17;43;04
David Hall
Yeah, you should. Absolutely. And so you have an extensive business and h.r. Background and I think that definitely understanding your introversion is an important part of finding work that you really can use your strengths and honor your needs. How do introverts do that? How do they find the work that is is best?

00;17;43;04 – 00;18;12;11
Janice Chaka
I would say one thing that I’ve seen as a commonality is organizations that do asynchronous communication so that you’re not in back to back meetings. And so you are not that you’re given time to digest and then give an answer. Also helps if you’re working within multiple time zones. That I found is a common denominator for organizations that do well for introverts.

00;18;12;11 – 00;18;48;08
Janice Chaka
And to be fair, not not enough organizations are really good at communication in general. They’re just kind of like, here’s your email, here’s your slack. Figure out, well, then have a set communications plan where you use messaging for this and you use emails for that, and you use whatever systems you have for these types of things. And also, why to have meetings is it no one needs to be at all the meetings all the time like this, just not clear frameworks that organizations use and therefore they get stuck in having meetings when they don’t necessarily need to have meetings because they’re taking that what they used to do in a building and trying to stick

00;18;48;08 – 00;19;11;14
Janice Chaka
it on Zoom and it doesn’t always work that way. So that’s one thing I would say that was common for introverts for like any, any role. And then it’s kind of looking at the percentage of meetings that organizations have. And unfortunately, you won’t know that by looking at a job description. But she could get to the interview stage, all kind of have an informational interview.

00;19;11;15 – 00;19;54;28
Janice Chaka
You can ask people like, what does the average day look like? And I said, Well, I’m in a lot of meetings then. Is that what we want to be doing? Or phone calls or like something that drains you here? Because meetings might not train you, you might get run out of meetings, but it kind of depends also, looking for organizations that take mental health seriously just because it means they’re looking at more diverse humans and understand that humans aren’t all the same and there’s neurodiversity and what that looks like and therefore they’re more likely to be more open in the things that they try and the things they do are not.

00;19;55;14 – 00;20;17;13
Janice Chaka
And because of that, will well, if you voice any concerns, will like to be taken seriously and adjusted. Those are kind of some of the common commonalities that I have seen for roles. But most of the time people don’t do that jobs that is that managers. So if you want to go down a little more granular, it’s like, okay, what is your manager going to be like?

00;20;17;13 – 00;20;39;15
Janice Chaka
Are they a micromanager? Are they someone who will trust you? Are they an extrovert? Do they need a lot of people face to face time? Is face face time important to them? Because a lot of managers don’t know how to manage without seeing the person every week, day, month, whatever it might be. And so finding out as much as you can about the person who will be managing you is really important, too.

00;20;40;23 – 00;20;57;05
David Hall
Yeah. And if I mean, you know, of course, introverts and extroverts can work well together, but if your manager is extroverted and doesn’t understand what you need as an introvert, that can be very problematic. And like you said, people leave the managers.

00;20;58;19 – 00;20;59;02
Janice Chaka
They do.

00;21;00;12 – 00;21;28;24
David Hall
I like the idea you’re talking about with you know, we have a lot of modes of communication. But if we could have some kind of guidelines around that, I think that would be very helpful. I know like you mentioned, like Slack or things like that, you can get a lot of good work done that way, but what if you’re in lots of meetings and other people are having this conversation where they’re making decisions and you might need to think about that sometimes that can go really quickly and you’ve missed the conversation know.

00;21;29;16 – 00;22;04;09
Janice Chaka
Yeah. And that’s why there should be a communication protocol. Organizations should have like we shouldn’t be making decisions really quickly generally speaking anyway. But yeah, who needs to be involved? Why do they need to be involved and timelines to get to make sure that it’s not. We need to make a decision today and we’ve only got an hour to do it, but we have all this information that you have to digest like it’s a lack of planning on a lot of organizations part and I get stuff comes up but yeah clear clear communication protocol is like the basis of a lot of things because what we say in general, just with humans communication makes and

00;22;04;09 – 00;22;29;07
Janice Chaka
breaks relationships. And so that should be a really, really key thing within your organization, why you have meetings and how you communication creating and why using those methods of communication. And there’s so much dependency on the written word and writing things down rather than, hey, someone can make heads better, use a voice message system. I think at that point across quicker than like having to type and think of the words.

00;22;29;07 – 00;22;37;13
Janice Chaka
But very few organizations use that. Even though Slack actually has a capability like a plugin that you can use for voice maps, it’s just not used.

00;22;38;22 – 00;23;04;10
David Hall
Yeah. And it’s sometimes, you know, we’re talking about that we need to think about things. And I had a CEO on the show and he was a fellow introvert and he said with big decisions, you know, there was definitely a window where people got to think before they made that decision because, you know, he honored the people that needed time to think and not making quick decisions on on the major, major things where.

00;23;04;10 – 00;23;30;10
David Hall
Yeah, I know. That’s why. Yeah, that’s why we’re doing this, right? We’ve got to change, change the understanding of introversion and, and how we really can do our best work. Mm So I read an article from you about even just getting the job in general. Sometimes the systems that we use, you know, the, the hiring process is, isn’t geared for introverts.

00;23;30;10 – 00;23;35;19
David Hall
How do you see that we could make some changes that would make the hiring process better?

00;23;36;23 – 00;23;59;13
Janice Chaka
Oh, okay. Where to start? So starting with job descriptions, a lot of the times copied and pasted from the old job description. And the job is probably evolved at that point, but all job descriptions love to use. I was talking to a client the other day and he’s like, Oh, I need a salesperson. I have to be an extrovert, they have to be charismatic.

00;23;59;13 – 00;24;18;07
Janice Chaka
And so I was like, I’m sorry, you realize you’re talking to me. So I was just the wrong wording anyway. And then be quiet, what is all of these things? And so using the right wording to express what you need to do, they need to be charismatic to be a salesperson. No, they need to be able to keep relationships.

00;24;18;16 – 00;24;38;25
Janice Chaka
Yes. Those are two different things. So from the wording that you use in a job description, then you move on to like the job posting, which is supposed to advertise how wonderful your organization is and why some would want to work and then have a list of like what could happen within that job posting should be what does our interview process look like?

00;24;38;25 – 00;24;52;28
Janice Chaka
How many? Whoops a week got to make you jump through? Is it like two interviews? One is a video, one’s a phone call, and then we make a decision? Or is it we’re going to call you in and then we’re going to you’re going to have a meeting with the CEO and they’re going to have a meeting with your manager.

00;24;52;28 – 00;25;14;21
Janice Chaka
And then we’re going to put you in for a panel interview and then we’re going to do a video thing. And then we can do like a day of interviewing because is everyone not just interested? Everyone deserves to know upfront how much time and effort they’re going to have to put in to be hired for this role. And it gives you a clear, like timeline of like, oh, well, this is going to take six months for them to make a decision or who they might make a decision in two weeks.

00;25;16;06 – 00;25;54;23
Janice Chaka
And along with that, because I was listed, it was eavesdropping on a conversation this weekend, a student had applied for a job at like a supermarket and it was stocking shelves. And they pulled her in for a third interview and she was like, No, I don’t need the job that badly for you. Coming for that interview to stop, she was just like, So the amount of time for interviews related to the top position that you were hiring for and then it’s that I know a lot of especially tech companies that the whole we’re going to call you in for the day, then you’re going to do how many interviews back to back those one those

00;25;54;23 – 00;26;16;11
Janice Chaka
one tech organization that was like you’re going to have 445 minute interviews and you get a 15 minute break in between the first two full like a bathroom break. Congrats. You’re going to speak to 18 people during that time again. Is that necessary? Does that help you pick someone who’s good for the role? Because a lot of companies like, oh, they need to be a cultural fit.

00;26;16;11 – 00;26;50;16
Janice Chaka
That’s funny to me. People first thing should be can they do the job? And this way to test that without putting someone in for an interview, you could do like a test situation which could be automated. Like coders do it all the time, so no ways to direct for different roles. And so about back to back and so it’s just on can the person do the job, not whether they went to the same school this year, not whether it’s like they they live in a neighborhood close to you, whatever it might be, because we all have biases as humans, we have biases.

00;26;50;22 – 00;27;14;20
Janice Chaka
And as recruiters, you always get trained on how not to have a bias, but the whole system is set up with bias in mind. So then there’s the interviewing part, and then there’s like onboarding, and I could go on about that. But generally speaking, organizations need to think about the fact that, okay, maybe someone would do really well by doing a, like a video application instead of just the resume.

00;27;14;21 – 00;27;29;24
Janice Chaka
Some people come across that and can explain themselves more. Oh, the option of both. Not just relying on the written word and giving people multiple ways to express themselves. It’s super helpful. Just in general helps a lot.

00;27;30;11 – 00;27;42;14
David Hall
Yeah, absolutely. And so with the current system though, or how it is in many companies, what can an introvert do to best prepare for a hiring situation?

00;27;42;14 – 00;28;01;05
Janice Chaka
There’s a couple of things. One, work with a recruiter. There are a lot of recruiters, freelance recruiters out there that work for certain organizations that are external. They don’t internal, get to know them, build a relationship with them, because then they’re going to pick the best kind of roles that will work for you. What you’re looking for, what money you want, where you want to, what type organization you want to work with.

00;28;01;13 – 00;28;35;15
Janice Chaka
And they will advocate for you far better than just like a random human that’s put in that resume. And then as far as prepare for interviews, ask when you get told, okay, then that’s going to be this interview. Ask is in person, is it a video? How long is it? How many people am I going to be speaking to get that information and then use that to prepare like, okay, well before the event, maybe make sure that you have time to be charged after the event, that you’ll have time to reach out to whatever works for you but don’t have to music, dance around whatever it is that works for you to give you that

00;28;35;15 – 00;28;56;04
Janice Chaka
energy, to work with someone, to practice answers, to questions. There are there’s a lot of information out there on common questions how to answer, like the star method and ways to answer questions and get someone who’ll be able to pull information out of you that you’re not thinking about. Because what I found when doing this to clients is on myself.

00;28;56;04 – 00;29;22;17
Janice Chaka
I’m just as bad at it as you forget the stuff that you’ve been doing because we’ve just in the weeds working all the time. We kind of forget to celebrate the wins that we have or we don’t see them as wins. And that’s information that shows how you’re good at what you’re doing. And when you’re thinking about answers to questions, think about how you supported and helped someone do whatever it might be.

00;29;22;17 – 00;30;02;26
Janice Chaka
So your UX design is like, I built this thing, which helped more people with visibility issues through the site and therefore drive more traffic. So it’s not necessarily about you but about how you help and supported X human with the work that you do. Personal story and emotion and feeling behind it. And that tends to tweak with a lot of interviewers do research on the company, they’ve got the web pages, but also look for any news stories and see if you can talk to people who have worked in the organization and just ask for 50 minutes of that time to just ask what it’s like working there and different departments and managers and that sort

00;30;02;26 – 00;30;04;13
Janice Chaka
of thing. Yeah.

00;30;04;21 – 00;30;18;04
David Hall
Yeah. Whenever I am on the other side of the table doing the interview, it just surprises me when people don’t know anything about the company. And I mean, as an introvert, we can be really good researchers and there’s so much information out there we should do that.

00;30;18;29 – 00;30;20;11
Janice Chaka
It happens a lot.

00;30;20;11 – 00;30;38;26
David Hall
Yeah. Another thing you mentioned is sometimes we’re so close to our own gifts and strengths and that the work that we do, that we don’t celebrate it, we just think, oh, it’s just average. I think that leads us into another topic that I really want to talk with you about. You’re you talk about imposter syndrome. What is that?

00;30;39;05 – 00;30;41;23
David Hall
How do we how do we keep it away?

00;30;43;10 – 00;31;13;13
Janice Chaka
Imposter syndrome. Okay. That’s really interesting question because it doesn’t have a clear definition. It’s more like because it started off as imposter phenomenon and then it sort of merged into imposter syndrome. And so it’s loosely kind of defined as when you doubt your abilities or you feel like a fraud or you feel like you’re going to like get found out, like you’re not deserving of the new job that you got or the pay raise that you got or whatever it is.

00;31;13;13 – 00;31;34;12
Janice Chaka
And you feel like people are going to find out that you’re not all that and that you don’t deserve X, Y and Z. And it’s kind of complicated just because it’s tied into a lot of things like personality traits, but also how you grew up. The relationships that you’ve had, maybe how your boss treated you, how teachers treated you like anything.

00;31;34;12 – 00;31;57;06
Janice Chaka
It’s a little complex and it can show up in many different ways. And this kind of been categorized by Dr. Valerie Young as sort of like five different types of imposters and how they show up. And so one sort of like the perfectionist. So you can only focus on how something is done and make sure it turns out if there’s a tiny flaw or anything happens, then it’s like, Oh, well, no, I failed.

00;31;57;18 – 00;32;18;14
Janice Chaka
It’s not like I could do it. This is just wrong. And then there’s some one that’s called the expert where like, you know, you have to know all the things and if you don’t know all the things, then you feel like, Oh, and I don’t like learning because learning is an extra thing. You’re like, No, no, I know everything.

00;32;18;14 – 00;32;30;14
Janice Chaka
And then when you find out, you just don’t know tiny thing. You feel shame or you feel like, Oh, well, maybe I’m not the expert on this, this and this because I didn’t know everything. You know how hard it is to know everything about one thing.

00;32;32;20 – 00;32;51;24
Janice Chaka
And then you’ve got others like the soloist. The soloist tends to show up a lot with introverts just because you like doing stuff alone. And then it’s like, I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it. Well, I don’t need anyone else. I’m fine. I should be able to do it by myself and anything else is like a sign of weakness, not necessarily case, but that’s kind of where it flows.

00;32;52;01 – 00;33;15;15
Janice Chaka
And you’ve got like the natural genius where a lot of things just come easy. And then the assumption is everything should come easy. And then then when they reach something that like actually takes a little bit of effort, it’s like, Oh, then Costa syndrome kicks in. And the last one is the superhuman tends to affect more women. Couples think you do everything, all the things career, life, mother, all the things and so on and so forth.

00;33;15;28 – 00;33;37;23
Janice Chaka
But yeah, that’s kind of a rough overview of imposter syndrome, but how to eradicate it. Honestly, everyone at some point in their life will get like a tinge of imposter syndrome just because that’s how we’re wired as humans, because we talk about good luck. And so it’s like, well, I was lucky to get X, Y and Z or you worked hard.

00;33;37;28 – 00;34;01;04
Janice Chaka
You worked hard for things. So, you know, I worked hard to get X, Y and Z. It wasn’t because of my natural talent. It’s also helped because you can get people who are good at basketball, but if they then get to train for 10000 hours, they might become great at basketball. Or you get someone who’s just not good at math, who put trains at 10000 hours and it’s still better because, you know, 10,000 was supposed to make you really good at something here.

00;34;02;03 – 00;34;31;27
Janice Chaka
So there are ways of sort of wrecking losing when imposter syndrome is creeping up on you on the shoulder and recognizing that, knowing knowing oneself and then figuring out what it is you need to do. Some people call it like reframing or just talking yourself out of it or using data points, because that’s the thing. As humans, we are very much in our heads and we think certain things and to us then it becomes fact.

00;34;32;02 – 00;34;50;23
Janice Chaka
Whereas if you look at the data like a thought is not a fact, but data is about people like, oh, I didn’t deserve, you know, this new role that I got. Okay, well, you probably applied for the job with your résumé and you interviewed other people, third party humans who don’t know you. Like this person would be good for the job.

00;34;51;07 – 00;35;16;13
Janice Chaka
Then they gave you an offer and are paying money to do the job. So I think you deserve the job. But we get caught up so well. You know, if I had applied at that time, I had met that friend in that coffee shop. If I had like what my lucky dress on that day, what it might be and habit of just talking ourselves out, of stepping into and acknowledging and enjoying achievements no matter what that might be.

00;35;16;21 – 00;35;22;15
Janice Chaka
But yeah, I don’t think you can keep it at bay, but I do think that there’s ways of recognizing when it’s coming up and like working through it.

00;35;23;02 – 00;35;48;23
David Hall
Yeah. Oh, I definitely relate it to all those different things, especially I know that the perfectionism can create bad and I’ve reframed that one, but just saying, guess what, you’re not perfect. You’ve done the work here, but all the other people are not perfect either. So that’s something that’s really helped me. It’s funny because like right before I added guest to this show, I did a little episode on imposter syndrome and I was definitely feeling that right then.

00;35;49;24 – 00;35;53;12
David Hall
But again, we’re human, but we need to recognize what’s great about too.

00;35;54;21 – 00;35;56;21
Janice Chaka
Yeah, yeah, we don’t do that enough.

00;35;57;14 – 00;36;21;08
David Hall
Another thing Janice I wanted to talk to you about is you’ve been doing remote work long before. I do. I do remote work now, but it’s new to me since COVID. But you’ve been doing it for a long time and managing remote teams and things like that. How is it benefiting introverts and maybe is there any misconceptions about introverts in remote work?

00;36;21;08 – 00;36;56;20
Janice Chaka
Oh yeah. Myth busting. Take two. Yeah. The assumption is that all introverts love remote work, but based that assumption comes with some bias. That assumption comes with the assumption that the person gets to work from home, an environment that they choose. With all the gadgetry and tech and comfortability of chat and no interruptions, maybe a door that closes, maybe some sunlight, maybe the a cap, adequate lighting, food, money.

00;36;57;20 – 00;37;24;25
Janice Chaka
There’s a lot of assumptions that get made with that statement. Right. And the fact that, hey, as humans, we do need the occasional like seeing of the humans and talking to other humans, touching other humans, because that’s where community with that’s how we are. So there is definitely that assumption. Not everyone has that privilege. I mean, even myself here, people like, oh, look, you’ve got this, this thing, we all can’t see it because it’s audio.

00;37;25;06 – 00;37;43;02
Janice Chaka
But I have a bunch of records behind me and people assume that those records online, I know they’re not mine. They belong to somebody else. I just happen to be a room that has these things, but people make assumptions about it, and there’s a lot that goes on, especially with Zoom now being a thing people say into people’s houses.

00;37;43;02 – 00;38;27;08
Janice Chaka
It gets a little invasive. The backgrounds, people walking, your cats, you do stuff that you never knew about your colleagues. You now sort of not quite know what the inside of their apartment looks like. You’ve moved rooms, all that sort of thing. So Having said that, if the other thing with remote work is the expectation to be online and available all the time, and when you were in the office, you probably weren’t online or available on working or 8 hours because as humans our brains just don’t work that way, can maybe work really well in a 40 hour 40 minute block or 30 minute block.

00;38;27;08 – 00;38;47;28
Janice Chaka
And then we take a little break. We get a restroom, we get some water, we talk to somebody, gaze off into space, whatever it might be. And so we don’t necessarily have that in the same way when we work from home, a lot of people miss emails that don’t step away to actually go and eat food in a different room.

00;38;49;17 – 00;39;11;05
Janice Chaka
You don’t have that instantaneous chat with another human because you may be home alone, so you don’t have that. And a lot of the time you’re supporting your extrovert colleagues because they need someone to talk out whatever it is that they’re doing. Things are different, you know, start the pandemic. There’s a lot of like extroverts. So like, I just need to talk to somebody.

00;39;11;05 – 00;39;55;05
Janice Chaka
I don’t care. I just I need you to talk to me. And I’m like, I’ve I’ve just done eight Zoom meetings. Okay, friend, I know you need my help right now, so I’m going to try to be nice about it, but, like, yes. So those are some of the myths because of the assumptions that I made about introverts working from home or remote working, there’s another sort of viewpoint of it where, you know, there’s managers who have not been trained on how to manage remote teams, who haven’t been trained to know the differences between managing a remote team and in person, and why am I here for managing this episode different?

00;39;55;05 – 00;40;14;24
Janice Chaka
If we were in person, it was different when we were in person. I’m like, Yes, because it is different and you should be managing on what person the output is and not how many hours per day that is stuck in front of the computer. They’re hitting the milestones. Are they doing the work? Yes. Then you should not be worried about anything else that they are doing.

00;40;15;05 – 00;40;47;10
Janice Chaka
If that that they’re not on this little slack thing that doesn’t have green time or whatever it might be. And that is another is a problem is managers being able to manage remote teams and what that looks like and how it’s different. Again with the asynchronous communication and time zones, even even just across America, the school time. And so having a distributed workforce and always having your Friday masterclass meeting at 3 p.m. and Pacific Time sucks for everyone on the East Coast.

00;40;47;23 – 00;41;16;20
Janice Chaka
I don’t know which way you look at it Friday and I do not want to be doing that right. This thought there has to be this thought that has to be gone into that. But it always depends on where the headquarters is, is headquarters is best. And that’s like everything that like flies out from that one thing that that’s doing y left an organization but yes not all interests like working from home because home can be messy or just not a good environment to work from.

00;41;16;20 – 00;41;40;29
David Hall
Yeah, it was crazy. So up until two years ago I mostly went into the office and then when I started working from home, I was with my wife and three kids and my kids were two of them were in online school and they didn’t like it. And it was a big adjustment and so I didn’t have as much quiet time.

00;41;40;29 – 00;41;58;00
David Hall
It was definitely different. And so it wasn’t a good environment and I know there was other people that didn’t really have the office set up, you know, and other things like that. So it wasn’t always a good thing. And you also kind of mentioned I did miss like kind of the spontaneous chat sometimes, you know, sometimes you need that.

00;41;58;08 – 00;42;15;09
David Hall
And like every time I would, like try to talk to someone. All right, well, let’s set an appointment. And, like, sometimes it’s just like I just wanted to just have a quick call, you know, I don’t need an appointment with you, so there’s things like that. So if it a nutshell, what would be a tip or two that you know?

00;42;15;09 – 00;42;18;10
David Hall
How can introverts thrive in in the remote environment.

00;42;19;05 – 00;42;37;20
Janice Chaka
For those like quick chats might be with a human that you want to be with, but I have like a WhatsApp that I have like a human that’s on the other side of the world. But at any point I can like send a message and vent about my day. I just had this client or I just had this call.

00;42;37;20 – 00;42;57;29
Janice Chaka
Or you might guess what happened on the Internet is that whatever it might be that you just need to release on. And so getting like a community, like people that you can like this is your your person to go and but about work or this is your person to talk about hobbies with having people that you can talk to asynchronously.

00;42;58;12 – 00;43;21;18
Janice Chaka
That’s obviously going to be the word of the episode. It is helpful, but also if you can occasionally go work in a co-working space depending on how you feel with the world as it is or if you can go into the office once a week because like hybrid, it’s a whole other world and can be a multitude of different things.

00;43;21;28 – 00;43;51;11
Janice Chaka
But whatever you do, set up your office as well as you can, whether it’s getting noise, canceling headphones, putting a sign on the door that gets flipped when you you you can have interruptions or not have interruptions, separate work from home. That is something that is very hard if you have like one computer because some organizations make you work from home, it don’t supply you with a laptop, have a separate log in for home and for work and have a different background screen.

00;43;51;14 – 00;44;11;06
Janice Chaka
So that helps your mind know that like, oh, I’m not working anymore, I’m going to play on theme or like what YouTube videos or whatever it might be if you can. Even if you just have like one desk, maybe you can face one way for work and then on the other side of face the other way for non-work time just to try and get that degree of separation because your mind likes that.

00;44;11;13 – 00;44;32;28
Janice Chaka
And as someone who also is very much like at the start of the day, they would go walk around the block to work, come back into the office and then work. And then at the end of the day, they would walk back around the block and come home because it came from that just that little sliver of separation that helps with like mental health in general for stopping work and actually having stop time.

00;44;32;28 – 00;44;55;11
Janice Chaka
Don’t have your work emails on your phone when they. Yeah I’m sure there’s this but trying to try and sort out your office and six months later you’ll figure out all the things that you like or don’t like about your office and you kind of redo it all by other stuff. That’s what I realized. Every six months you kind of like figure out what you like to do.

00;44;55;11 – 00;45;11;06
David Hall
Like, yeah, and I think I think the world is, you know, like, like yourself. You’ve been doing this for a long time, but a lot of people it’s new to. And for a lot of people right now, we’re moving more into the hybrid environment and and we’re still figuring it out. You know, we need to figure out things that work.

00;45;11;11 – 00;45;34;14
David Hall
You talked about someone taking a walk, and I didn’t realize how much I missed my commute, how much that was. My driving home from work was my downtime to really just be by myself, maybe listen to music, maybe not. And I had to replace that. I had to come up with, you know, all right, before I’m going to hang out with the family, I need to just spend a little bit of time in a different room for a little bit.

00;45;34;14 – 00;45;41;06
David Hall
You know, you have to explain that, you know, hey, this is just normal for me, guys. You know, I love you, but I just need a little bit of space.

00;45;41;11 – 00;45;46;24
Janice Chaka
Yeah, it probably took some trial and error. You didn’t realize that was missing and then until you did something right?

00;45;47;05 – 00;46;02;10
David Hall
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because it’s like, again, I don’t miss the driving time, the gas and all that. Traffic is terrible. But the to decompress and recharge and think about things was something I needed to find a way to replace that.

00;46;02;10 – 00;46;29;19
Janice Chaka
And that’s awesome. Well, I’m glad you did find a way. And you mentioned hybrid working. So hybrid is such a funny word because you have a good translation, job description, hybrid work. I know an organization that I work with that has like 68 different versions. What hybrid could look like? Because it’s like, do you do you come in on Mondays, you’re coming Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you come in two days a week, whichever date you want.

00;46;29;23 – 00;46;40;28
Janice Chaka
Do you come in for 3 hours like hybrid, mean, like the gamut, all things. And so I’m explaining exactly what you mean by hybrid is really, really important as well. And what that looks like.

00;46;41;04 – 00;46;50;16
David Hall
Yeah. Wow. Janice, we’ve talked about so many different things about how we can bring our strengths and needs into work. Is there anything that we missed that you want to talk about?

00;46;51;09 – 00;47;13;05
Janice Chaka
Um, no, but I will say, don’t be afraid to ask for what you did because no one’s going to do it for you. Unfortunately. And we still have to do a lot of explaining as introverts. Like, it’s not like even you mentioned like it’s not like I love you all, but like I just need this time. And sometimes you have to say it two or three times, like it’s not personal.

00;47;13;05 – 00;47;35;08
Janice Chaka
It’s not a thing. I just if you want me to function at my best, this is what I need. And you can tell me what you need to function at your best. And we’ll, like, come to a happy medium or like whatever it might be. But it’s an ongoing journey. It gets easier, but you still learning things because the world changes, all seasons change or like work changes, and so you have to readjust.

00;47;35;16 – 00;47;40;23
Janice Chaka
And yeah, I don’t think it’s a one and done thing that’s okay. Learning as you go and that’s fine.

00;47;41;23 – 00;47;46;25
David Hall
Yeah, that sounds great. And of course, where can people find out more about you and the great work that you do.

00;47;49;23 – 00;48;18;20
Janice Chaka
Best by the career and BET.com and I’m the only Janice track on on a lot of things, to be fair. So it’s really on LinkedIn as well. I will say that the website is better because LinkedIn’s messaging system is is not the best and they’re not going to fix it because they’re the biggest and they have no reason to fix it.

00;48;18;20 – 00;48;20;01
David Hall
All right. Well, thank you, gentlemen.

00;48;20;01 – 00;48;20;22
Janice Chaka
A little shade.

00;48;22;23 – 00;48;26;01
David Hall
All right. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation and so glad you came on today.

00;48;27;08 – 00;48;29;07
Janice Chaka
Thank you. It was it was fun. Thanks.

00;48;29;16 – 00;48;50;22
David Hall
It was fun. Thank you so much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at David at quiet and strong dot com or check out the quiet and strong dot com website which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show if you’re interested in getting to know yourself better.

00;48;50;27 – 00;49;11;27
David Hall
There’s now a free type finder personality assessment on the quiet and strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the four letter Myers-Briggs code. I’ll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert and we need those to be understood. Get to know introverted strengths and needs and be strong.

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