Listen Now


Can introverts lead in a powerful way? Join David and his guest Ed Frauenheim as they discuss Quiet Leadership, especially for Introverted Men.

Together, David and Ed explore the unique challenges faced by introverted men in leadership roles, and how they can leverage their natural strengths to become effective and respected leaders. Whether you’re an introverted man looking to improve your leadership skills or someone interested in learning more about the topic, this episode is sure to provide valuable insights and practical tips. So sit back, relax, and enjoy Episode 115 of the Quiet and Strong podcast!

Learn how to be an effective leader without changing your personality or compromising who you are. Get tips on communication strategies, developing authority, and how to make the most of your strengths. Don’t miss this important conversation – listen now!
– – –

Ed Frauenheim is an author, speaker and consultant focused on masculinity, workplace culture and society. He has co-authored four books, including Reinventing Masculinity: The Liberating Power of Compassion and Connection. He and author Jennifer Kahnweiler have researched the intersection of gender and introversion, and created a program called “Now is the Time for Quiet Men and Women.”

Get Ed’s Book:

Reinventing Masculinity: The Liberating Power of Compassion and Connection

Website

Ed’s Website: EdFrauenheim.com
Program Website: “Now is the Time for Quiet Men” 
 
Social Media: LinkedIn

– – –

Contact the host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast: 

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com

Take the FREE Personality Assessment:
Typefinder Personality Assessment

Follow David on your favorite social platform:
Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn


Q&A About this Episode

1. What is the most effective leadership style according to a recent study?– The most effective leaders were those who were humble, focused on building relationships of trust, and focused on the big mission of the organization.

2. How do introverted leaders fit into the modern leadership shift towards caring for employees?– Introverted leaders possess many of the same qualities as the ideal leader identified in the study, such as building trust, making space for decision-making, and providing direction instead of directions.

3. Can introverts be good at public speaking and performing?– Yes, introverts can be good at and enjoy public speaking and performing.

4. Are there famous performers or actors who are introverted?– Yes, many performers and actors are introverts.

5. Can public speaking skills be improved with practice?– Yes, public speaking skills can be improved with practice.

6. Is it true that introverts don’t like people?– No, the myth that introverts don’t like people is not true.

7. How can introverted leaders become more productive?– The first step is to help introverts feel good about themselves and their abilities. Providing support for introverted styles and temperaments increases productivity, including providing agendas in advance, small group time, quiet reflection time, and asynchronous approaches.

8. How did introverts do in remote work settings during the pandemic?Introverts tended to do well in remote work settings during the pandemic.

9. What resources are available to help introverts become powerful, prominent, positive leaders?- Susan Kane’s and Jennifer Conweiler’s books, as well as their videos, can be helpful resources for introverts.

10. How can introverted men thrive in the workplace without having to be someone they’re not?- By setting their own standards and playing to their strengths, introverted guys can achieve success and thrive without having to be someone they’re not. It’s okay to take naps or breaks during the day for recharging purposes. Creating an introvert-friendly culture benefits both introverts and extroverts.


Timestamped Overview

[00:05:19] Introverts can do and enjoy public speaking; many performers and actors are introverts; introverts need recharge time after socializing.

[00:11:49] Introverted men, often advocates for marginal groups, are well-suited for the “faster, flatter, and more fairness-focused” workplace.

[00:16:19] Introverted men leaders prioritize relationships and psychological safety, fostering genuine and caring connections that promote collaboration and innovation.

[00:20:28] Help introverts feel confident, prepare for meetings, provide group time, silent time, and asynchronous approaches.

[00:23:44] Finding mentors, reading books, watching videos, reflecting on how introvert skills can be used in leadership to make things better.

[00:25:38] Introverted guys struggle to fit into extrovert-oriented hyper-masculine workplaces, but with their own expectations, they can thrive.

[00:28:00] Leaders should be humble, focus on big mission, build relationships of trust, empower team members to make decisions, not micromanage.

[00:30:53] Need for quiet time is normal, introverts/extroverts benefit from downtime, it’s okay to recharge.

[00:38:12] Allow introverts more time to think and contribute.

[00:40:05] Introverted men and women experience gender bias in addition to introversion.


Podcast Transcript

00;00;00;12 – 00;00;29;24
Ed Frauenheim
And in fact, there’s all this, you know, growing amounts of research, that stillness focused time is super productive over time. Like we need to unplug, to reflect, to have the concentration on a particular topic. You know, I think there’s growing attention to that and how powerful that is.

00;00;32;24 – 00;00;53;03
David Hall
Hello and welcome to Episode 115 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall, and the creator of Quiet and Strong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we air each episode on a Monday.

00;00;53;16 – 00;01;17;24
David Hall
Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review. That would mean a lot to me. Tell a friend about the podcast app. Get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing and for our time is an author, speaker and consultant focused on masculinity, workplace, culture and society. His coauthored four books, including Reinventing Masculinity The Liberating Power of Compassion and Connection.

00;01;18;12 – 00;01;35;02
David Hall
He and author Jennifer Conn Wheeler have researched the intersection of gender and introversion and created a program called Now is the Time for Quiet Men and Women. All right. Welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, and it’s so great to have you on the show today.

00;01;36;02 – 00;01;36;29
Ed Frauenheim
Great to be here, David.

00;01;38;05 – 00;01;46;07
David Hall
So we’re going to get into some of the work you’ve done. But before that, let’s talk about yourself and your journey through discovering your introvert and how you embrace that.

00;01;46;28 – 00;01;59;23
Ed Frauenheim
Sure. I am probably like a lot of people who learned about introversion largely through Susan Cain’s book. Right, Quiet and Gone Back. How many years ago is that now? Like 15 years or so?

00;02;01;03 – 00;02;02;06
David Hall
Yeah, that’s about right.

00;02;02;06 – 00;02;23;11
Ed Frauenheim
Ballpark. Yeah. I remember coming out and reading it and being really struck by it and being a little surprised that I was an introvert. According to her test, at the end of her book, I was just one tick on the side of introversion in that scale. So kind of Amber Bird, if you will, but not a super extreme introvert.

00;02;23;11 – 00;02;47;26
Ed Frauenheim
But I was introverted and that was surprising to me because I’ve always I’ve always thought of myself as a pretty gregarious person. But it really was the beginning of, you know, learning about this territory and appreciating my son who’s an introvert and kind of embracing those qualities in myself as well. And so I give her and her book a lot of credit along with other folks along the way.

00;02;48;21 – 00;02;55;24
David Hall
Yeah, definitely. And I highly recommend her book to Susan Cain’s Quiet. So if you were surprised, what made you pick it up?

00;02;56;22 – 00;03;20;28
Ed Frauenheim
It was a, you know, one of those buzzy books at the time. And I remember I was involved in my kids elementary school and a number of us were you know, people were reading it and I remember reading it and being really struck by it and ended up facilitating a workshop for parents about it with with somebody else who is kind of an educator.

00;03;21;26 – 00;03;32;29
Ed Frauenheim
And yeah, it just I couldn’t say that I picked it up because that was introverted, but it’s more like it was in the zeitgeist, I’d say. And then I learned a lot about myself from it.

00;03;33;22 – 00;03;49;05
David Hall
Okay, that’s fascinating. You know, and you’re not the first guest to say that that that book has been really influential. But, you know, a lot of people were looking for it because they felt like something was wrong with them. But you discovered some things about yourself that maybe you hadn’t thought of before.

00;03;50;24 – 00;04;13;17
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. I mean, the skills that I think I’ve got as an introvert that I wasn’t necessarily feeling super proud of in the past, necessarily were being a good listener, you know, coming up through the work world and where there’s a lot of pressure, especially on these guys, to be large and in charge, you know, to command a room, that those weren’t necessarily strengths of mine.

00;04;13;19 – 00;04;58;01
Ed Frauenheim
I’m better at kind of smaller group intimate conversations and developing deeper relationships. Those are things that were that I think now I’ve come to see as introverts skills and strengths that I felt better about myself around over time. And I have come to to learn some of those quote unquote, extroverts skills like, you know, public speaking. But I think, you know, it helped me, you know, build my self-esteem for sure, even though I wasn’t feeling completely like I was wrong, as I think it probably was a reflection of the fact that I was close to the middle on that scale of introversion and extroversion, but definitely came to appreciate, you know, myself better in the

00;04;58;01 – 00;04;58;20
Ed Frauenheim
course of reading it.

00;05;00;14 – 00;05;03;17
David Hall
And it wasn’t that you weren’t confident, but it sounds like it gave you more confidence.

00;05;04;11 – 00;05;06;20
Ed Frauenheim
That’s exactly. Well put. Mm hmm.

00;05;07;14 – 00;05;17;25
David Hall
And so on this show, you’ve talked about some strengths of introverts, and we talk about strengths and also needs, and we bust some. This is there a myth or two about introversion that you’ve that you want to bust?

00;05;19;04 – 00;05;42;08
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah, I’ll go back to that public speaking one, for one thing. I think there’s this notion that we’re, as we as introverts, are terrified of the stage, you know, getting up in front of people. And that may be you know, I’m not sure if that’s true or not in aggregate, but I think it’s something that introverts can do and do well and enjoy it.

00;05;42;08 – 00;05;59;01
Ed Frauenheim
And I’ve come to see I’ve come to learn that a lot of performers and actors are introverts. My my wife is a dancer, a performer, and she’s a little bit more introverted than I am. And, you know, through a lot of practice, I’ve done more than 100 public speaking events and people now say you’re a natural. I’m like, No, I’m not a natural.

00;05;59;01 – 00;06;22;22
Ed Frauenheim
I, like practiced this dozens of times and I burst. I was like stiff as a board, you know, and really awkward and a but now I’ve come to really enjoy interacting with a crowd or giving a talk and something I care about. That’s one myth. And I’d say another one is this notion that introverts don’t like people. And, you know, it’s it’s in the right settings, in the context and then in the quantity, you might say, of time with people that matters.

00;06;23;13 – 00;06;36;02
Ed Frauenheim
But I love I have really deep friendships and I enjoy being at parties and big groups. But at the same time, I really need that recharge time that so many introverts need as well.

00;06;36;25 – 00;07;05;25
David Hall
Yeah. And you used a really key word in there deep. You know, we love people, but we also love deep connections, deep conversation. Mm hmm. You know, and we don’t want to spend a lot of time in the small talk kind of things. We want to get to that deep, deep thing with, like, public speaking. You know, there’s definitely myths out there that introverts can be good public speakers, but you also hit on some really good points that you prepare, you know, and we like to think about things ahead of time.

00;07;05;25 – 00;07;20;19
David Hall
So it’s not that we can’t be amazing speakers, it’s just we approach it in a different way. And I’ve really learned that, you know, looking at, you know, working with extroverted colleagues and friends and seeing how they prepare for things and how it’s very different. But yet.

00;07;20;27 – 00;07;21;05
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah.

00;07;21;14 – 00;07;28;00
David Hall
That’s that’s what makes it so it’s not that we can’t be amazing, it’s just how do we have to do it is really the question.

00;07;28;00 – 00;07;34;12
Ed Frauenheim
So that’s such a good point. David, can I tell you a funny story about my my first keynote talk along those lines?

00;07;34;16 – 00;07;34;28
David Hall
Yeah.

00;07;35;00 – 00;08;00;22
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. I was giving a talk to a group of fluid power engineers of all people. This were like folks that do hydraulic engineering. And I’d written co-written a book about science and and technology innovation. And at first, I had 120 or so notecards, and my wife was like, you cannot go up to it, give it keynote speech, people reading these cards.

00;08;00;22 – 00;08;26;02
Ed Frauenheim
But I but I was really, really wary of winging it, like I think more extroverts might be more comfortable with. And I went for a swim in the hotel pool before the talk and I realized I actually knew I could give the talk while I’m swimming into my head. And that was, you know, was additional preparation. It was also this moment of control, sense and clarity that, okay, I know this stuff.

00;08;26;03 – 00;08;36;23
Ed Frauenheim
And I think maybe I wonder if there’s a lesson there for a lot of introverts that we know more than we think we do. But by the time we’ve done our preparing and a big part of what we need to do is trust ourselves.

00;08;37;20 – 00;08;55;02
David Hall
Yeah, but you also did the preparation, so even if you didn’t use those cards by making them that put it in your head, then you reviewed it after that in your mind without them, right? That’s what we have to think is how do we do it? Because if I’m giving a speech, I really like to reflect on what I’m going to say, but it’s definitely never scripted.

00;08;55;16 – 00;09;06;18
David Hall
I had another person talking about public speaking on the podcast and she said, You know, memorize the first 30 seconds a minute and then the rest just kind of have a good outline of what you want to talk about. I thought that was pretty good advice.

00;09;06;18 – 00;09;33;23
Ed Frauenheim
That is pretty great advice, huh? Yeah, that’s nice. And I think introverts also might lean into our relationships when we give talks, because I think when we can tell good stories and those often come out of relationships, that’s often gold in a public speaking event to really reach people’s hearts by telling a compelling story that gets to emotional depth.

00;09;34;06 – 00;09;36;09
Ed Frauenheim
And that’s a that’s one of our superpowers.

00;09;37;16 – 00;09;48;05
David Hall
Yeah. Do you think that. Yes. Stories were made for stories. Right. We we resonate with stories. Like, do you think introverts are natural storytellers or do they have to learn how to be storytellers?

00;09;49;09 – 00;10;18;16
Ed Frauenheim
I don’t know. That’s a great question. We’ll have to prepare for that one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Is it? I don’t know if I’d be curious, really, if there’s any research on that. I do think that we certainly are in good position to be good storytellers because we have that depth of connection with people. And we’ve done typically the research on a topic to know some good stories.

00;10;18;26 – 00;10;25;18
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah, whether that comes naturally or more naturally to introverts is, is something I’d be curious to learn about.

00;10;26;04 – 00;10;41;07
David Hall
Yeah, definitely. I think that some introverts, while they’re still gaining confidence, may need to give them self permission. You know, they’re still finding their voice. They need to give them self permission to tell those stories. And I’ve also just heard it’s good to keep track of them however you do that.

00;10;42;11 – 00;11;07;11
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. Jonathan I put them all in a Google doc on the topics that you care about. Maybe, you know, little arc of a of these stories. It’s also a topic, a territory that I’ve developed skill in as a journalist. David I’m it my, my background is writing in newspapers. You know, that was how I got my teeth as a writer in journalism later became more of a researcher on workplace issues and masculinity and and introversion.

00;11;08;27 – 00;11;31;16
Ed Frauenheim
But there’s something really good about having to write two stories a day where you have a ideally, you have a beginning, middle and an end, or that you can have a story like that if you especially if you’re telling a feature story. And that’s all stuff that can be taught, you know. So if, if, if some introverts out there want to get better at storytelling, it it’s a skill that can be developed.

00;11;32;04 – 00;11;48;09
David Hall
Absolutely. Yeah. That sounds great that you brought your background. You know, you continued to do that throughout all the work that you’re doing. Thank you. So you did a series with Jennifer Conway Miller. Now is the time for Quiet Men. Tell us about that. Tell us how that came about.

00;11;49;19 – 00;12;13;29
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah, thank you. It’s been a really neat project. And Jennifer Weiler is assume probably a lot of your listeners know she’s one of the leaders in the field of introversion and studying introversion at work and creating introvert, friendly workplaces. And I’m lucky to be part of the same author community as her through publishing books at the same publishing company called Bare Koehler Publishers.

00;12;13;29 – 00;12;34;08
Ed Frauenheim
And we just, you know, we we became friends and we just realized that we had, like, the Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup of topics, you know, like she’s got introversion, I’ve got masculinity. Where’s that? The mash up there. And we realized there’s a way to look at introversion through the lens of gender and and to look at masculinity through the lens of introversion and extroversion.

00;12;34;22 – 00;13;01;15
Ed Frauenheim
And it kind of with the kind of just the the things that we’d already learned going into this conversation, we realized that the work world was really lending itself right now to introversion and introverted, meant that these these guys, what we call them quiet men, is a kind of shorthand. They are good listeners. They are calm, they prepare, and they are.

00;13;01;15 – 00;13;21;03
Ed Frauenheim
We also learned this is something that came a little bit more in our research, but we will be learned that they are often advocates for other marginal groups, so they really just fit the world that’s faster, flatter and more fairness. Focused is one way we talk about how things are changing, so there’s quicker disruptions. You’ve got to share.

00;13;21;04 – 00;13;42;20
Ed Frauenheim
Just decision making power more broadly. If you’re going to go fast enough today and you got to pay attention to privilege and and guys have got to listen better and shut up a little bit. So a lot of these superpowers of introverted men really are, you know, help them to be well-suited to today. So that that was kind of where we started.

00;13;42;20 – 00;14;16;19
Ed Frauenheim
And as I said, when we interviewed seven or eight, kind of we keep increasing the number here like accomplished, introverted men. We were kind of struck that they they often looked out for other folks that have been likewise had it kind of hard in the typical, extroverted, large and in charge culture. We’re louder ship runs that rules. The day these folks were like sitting in on a ergs in play research groups or for minority groups or they were making sure they stood up to try to get more equal representation of men and woman at events.

00;14;16;25 – 00;14;34;03
Ed Frauenheim
So the speakers weren’t just going to be guys. So this is the kind of thing we discovered as we were doing our research. And overall, as I said, we do think it’s a it’s the right moment for for quiet men to have a greater seat at the table and to, you know, speak up more at the same time.

00;14;35;06 – 00;14;44;28
David Hall
Yeah. So we’re definitely busting some more myths there. Introverts can be great leaders. Explain leadership a little bit more. I love that term. So what does that mean?

00;14;45;12 – 00;15;09;14
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah, I think we got well, I think we borrowed that from somebody else. I think Jennifer may have discovered it somewhere, but basically it’s like the idea that the loudest gets to lead. And that’s been so much the the case in in meetings and in the way promotions are often given out. It’s like the squeaky wheel gets the grease and gets to get the band to advance in the organization.

00;15;09;14 – 00;15;48;04
Ed Frauenheim
You know, those who are who are yelling or is at the meetings may browbeat others into submission. Like we haven’t paid attention to really having a more inclusive approach to corporate culture such that it’s not the loudest voice that carries the day, but the most persuasive one, you know, the wisest one. And that means a lot of the contributions of introverts, men and women get pushed to the side or never even get heard, you know, because they aren’t introverts, haven’t been comfortable speaking up in a spontaneous way in meetings, even if they’re coming up with much better ideas than what that what they’re hearing out loud in the meeting.

00;15;48;04 – 00;15;48;24
David Hall
Yeah, yeah.

00;15;49;01 – 00;15;51;08
Ed Frauenheim
Does that resonate with what you’ve, you’ve observed as well?

00;15;51;08 – 00;16;12;04
David Hall
David Yeah, it shouldn’t be the loudest, although it has been that way for a long time in our culture that is changing conversations like this and and things like this that we have to keep doing to get the word out there that there’s some strengths that introverts possess, that they can lean into for great leadership. And we need to hear those introverted voices as well.

00;16;12;16 – 00;16;19;28
David Hall
What are some other strengths that you’ve seen in introverted leaders through your doing this series.

00;16;19;28 – 00;16;48;07
Ed Frauenheim
The personal connections piece? And that’s another reason why I think it’s a it’s a good time for introverted men leaders. You know, again, I’m focusing a lot on introverted men, but a lot of these skills and or traits go across the genders. But some of the leaders we talked about, they really put a priority on developing a human relationship with folks on their team and often a folks across another teams that they worked with.

00;16;48;17 – 00;17;32;08
Ed Frauenheim
So they were very much in tune with the highlighted the higher importance of psychological safety over the last couple of years during the pandemic, when it’s okay not to be okay when we realize we are all dealing with as we couldn’t have even imagined a couple of years ago, you know, life and death stressors, you know, and fears and the fact that introverted leaders could lean on this depth of of connection, as you put it earlier, the depth feels like they can have a genuine relationship and a caring relationship more readily in some ways than extroverted leaders can, you know, and they come across as authentic when they say, how are you doing?

00;17;32;08 – 00;18;12;03
Ed Frauenheim
I really I do care about you. And I think I. What was the other piece related to that? Well, just even yeah. Just to say that, that sense of, of with respect to across the organization, we now know that the most innovative ideas typically involve a mash up, you know, just like the Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup thing, like where you get you get the product team talking to the sales team or the, you know, the customer service team talking to the I.T team so that systems get better or products get better, services get more appealing and, and, you know, attractive.

00;18;12;03 – 00;18;27;25
Ed Frauenheim
And that is greased by the relationships that introverts often have, that they know somebody and they trust somebody. And then there is a ready collaboration such that good ideas and good new products can surface.

00;18;29;15 – 00;18;47;07
David Hall
And also a gift that they may have is just the power of observation that may see, you know, who does need to be in to the room to get that peanut butter cup effect? You know, there are a lot of good in my peanut butter. You know, they can put together those cross-functional teams to really look at different things in my life.

00;18;47;17 – 00;19;05;00
David Hall
Some of the best ideas have come that way from not one person’s idea, but a combination. You know, somebody brings this, somebody brings that, and then then it comes together. However, I will say introverts may have some great ideas on their own, too, so we just have to keep that in mind.

00;19;05;21 – 00;19;30;00
Ed Frauenheim
You know? And that’s actually I’m glad you said that, because one of the myths that I will challenge people have this about brainstorming and innovation is that the best thing to do is just put people in a room, in a room, let them talk. That’s actually not the most effective way of innovating. You do want to get multiple people together, but it’s more effective to first let them think on their own.

00;19;30;00 – 00;19;54;26
Ed Frauenheim
Another one of these introverted practices or introvert friendly practices that we all can benefit from. But if you just have you know what I would almost call nowadays a lazy meeting where you you want to bring the stakeholders together and just expect great things to happen. That’s not as effective as if you first give them a day or just even 5 minutes to jot down or think about their ideas on their own.

00;19;55;16 – 00;20;16;26
Ed Frauenheim
Then you bring them together. Otherwise you get narrowed in your thinking and kind of group thinking earlier than you need to. So as it builds on your point, introverts can have great ideas if they’re given the opportunity to to reflect first. And they get even better when you then put them together with other perspectives.

00;20;17;17 – 00;20;27;19
David Hall
Okay. And so how can leaders help that to happen? What’s some key things they can do to help introverts bring their best ideas forward?

00;20;28;24 – 00;20;42;07
Ed Frauenheim
Great question. And I’ll go back to the the webinar where you and I met David, and the question was like, how do we help introverts become more productive? And, you know, this is this is going to sound a little bit touchy feely or woo woo. But I think the first place we get to help introverts feel good about themselves.

00;20;42;19 – 00;21;05;04
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. Like to love themselves, you know, as and who they are because that confidence of I have something to give here is a first is a key first step to to bringing out good ideas if you’re running scared and think you’re not worthy because you don’t fit this leadership culture which is still predominant, you’re not going to bring your best ideas forward.

00;21;05;22 – 00;21;31;05
Ed Frauenheim
But if you know, there is, you know, an appreciation of introverts and a celebration of introverted styles and temperaments that gets the juices flowing initially, then I think we turn to sort of more practical steps like are you giving agendas in advance of meetings so that people can prepare and reflect? Are you are you providing some small group time where people can bounce ideas off?

00;21;31;05 – 00;21;51;19
Ed Frauenheim
Are you giving quiet like silent time and in meetings for folks to to reflect on what what they would like to say or do, are you having some asynchronous approaches where there’s maybe a, you know, a Facebook play type thread or some kind of wiki for people to kind of be generating ideas together? All these things can be done practically.

00;21;51;19 – 00;22;06;15
Ed Frauenheim
And we saw that happening during the pandemic more than ever. You know, the remote, remote type work introverts were often doing pretty great in those settings, and extroverts were the ones that were a little more uncomfortable not being around people all the time.

00;22;06;15 – 00;22;18;13
David Hall
Yeah, and of course, there’s a lot we can do for ourselves as introverts, you know, preparing and making sure there’s an agenda and doing research ahead of time. But but like you said, leaders can be impactful in that way, too.

00;22;19;22 – 00;22;51;26
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah, and I think. Yes. And and one thing I didn’t we didn’t to mention so far is just like have a presence for learning about introverts and can you create a new energy for introverts or can you have lunch and learn? It’s like, let’s understand different temperaments, personality styles that exist in our workplace and exist everywhere. So it’s not a hidden, shameful thing to be an introvert, but rather something that, you know, we we acknowledge and want to recognize and celebrate the strengths of introverts in our organization.

00;22;52;14 – 00;23;15;01
David Hall
Absolutely. Yeah. So leaders can promote that kind of those kind of conversations because on our teams, we should have introverts and extroverts. We need everybody, but we approach things differently as we’re talking about. And so if we can have those kinds of presentations or brown bags or whatever, you know, that can really go a long way in helping us understand each other.

00;23;15;12 – 00;23;24;01
David Hall
And, you know, maybe understanding, like, for example, that leadership isn’t necessarily the best leadership, you know? Yeah, exactly.

00;23;24;01 – 00;23;24;17
Ed Frauenheim
For sure.

00;23;25;18 – 00;23;39;25
David Hall
I liked how you led with that first question that you said, you know, introverts need to love themselves, kinds of thing. How how can we help introverts gain confidence and how can you gain confidence on your own as an introvert?

00;23;39;25 – 00;23;43;12
Ed Frauenheim
Another good question. I think listening to your podcast, you know.

00;23;43;21 – 00;23;44;22
David Hall
Hey, yeah, that’s a good thing.

00;23;44;23 – 00;24;15;27
Ed Frauenheim
Do more of that kind of self affirmation or in education, I think read Susan Cain’s book, read Jennifer Kamala’s books. You know, if you’re an introverted man, you might check out some of the videos that Jennifer and I did and and see that introverted men can become incredibly powerful, prominent, positive leaders. You know, we we interviewed the president of Rutgers University, the first African-American president of one of the you know, a major, giant state university.

00;24;15;27 – 00;24;48;06
Ed Frauenheim
And he is bringing his introverts skills to leadership in ways that are making that place better. And just in just a quick aside, they’re like, you know, when you see when you see people do like you succeeding, it helps you have that confidence. You can do so as well. So I guess that’s finding those mentors. And just an insight on Jonathan is he inherited a leadership team, a council where the culture was to not speak much like the previous president or former president had been much more I’m going to be the the speaker.

00;24;48;06 – 00;25;12;04
Ed Frauenheim
You speak more when you’re spoken to. And Jonathan’s like, I want to hear all your ideas. Why? What? I have a council of advisors. If we didn’t want to hear everybody’s perspective. And it took a while for that council to trust that he was honest when he said, Tell me your ideas. It took a while for him for those folks to realize he actually does listen to us and he wants to incorporate our views as he’s formulating decisions.

00;25;12;16 – 00;25;28;25
Ed Frauenheim
So I think finding mentors, educating yourself and, you know, reflecting on how this moment in time is very much suited for us as introverts, you know. So it’s thinking about ourselves, but also looking at the world, what’s needed right now. A lot of what we bring.

00;25;29;21 – 00;25;38;10
David Hall
Yeah. As you were doing this series, was there anything that was particularly surprising to you that you hadn’t thought of before?

00;25;38;10 – 00;26;01;14
Ed Frauenheim
Some of the things that were surprising is just how taxing it could be to be an introvert guy, even though, you know, even if you’re in leadership positions in one guy in particular, a friend of mine here in San Francisco, Chris Jones, talked about just being expected to be that large and in charge leader as is like a vice president of tech at a tech company.

00;26;02;21 – 00;26;32;08
Ed Frauenheim
And in it when we are, there is a double whammy for introverted guys insofar as we live in this extrovert oriented culture. That’s also a pretty hyper masculine culture. Typically our workplaces where we we expect domination and you, you know, win the day and yet it’s mostly about crushing opponents in meetings so that you’re your idea wins, you know, and not showing emotion, you know, and being stoic.

00;26;33;19 – 00;27;08;20
Ed Frauenheim
And this just ran counter to his his values and his temperament. Like he’s he wants to be connecting with people and building these relationships more attuned to the value of the how healthy the bonds were on his team, then immediately hitting those short term goals. You just know that the how mattered as much as the the the outcome you know the means better to just like the ends and he just had to like turn himself into pretzels to sort of fit into that those boxes, if you will.

00;27;08;29 – 00;27;40;11
Ed Frauenheim
And since then, he’s now going up on his own as a consultant so he can kind of rewrite the story, you know, rewrite the expectations. Now, he does seminars for leaders about product development around the world, and he’s on his own time, you know, not having to be someone he wasn’t really. So I think and he’s not the only one who found it really hard to try to meet not only the the extrovert expectations, but this kind of like command and control guy expectations as well.

00;27;41;03 – 00;27;46;17
Ed Frauenheim
And yet when they did rewrite those expectations for themselves, they were really thriving.

00;27;48;09 – 00;27;59;04
David Hall
Yeah, that makes me think too. So we’ve been talking about like the leadership, right? From your experience, you have a lot of experience looking at the workplace. Do people really want that leadership leader?

00;28;01;05 – 00;28;24;02
Ed Frauenheim
I think fewer and fewer do you know what we learned? Learn a great place to work. I was we were talking about how I spent six years as the director of content there and did some work on a big study about leadership. We studied 75,000 employees and 10,000 managers, and we found that the most productive and inclusive managers were what we called for all leaders.

00;28;24;05 – 00;28;56;02
Ed Frauenheim
In other words, they reached almost all their people and they were humble. They were about building relationships of trust. They were about focusing on the big mission of the organization, not short term results. And those are quality. We ended up coming up with an icon that was a woman sitting on the ground like holding a rainbow. It was like the most opposite of like the like general, like barking commands at his at his team or his troops.

00;28;56;11 – 00;29;19;04
Ed Frauenheim
There is maybe an older school version of leadership, but I think that’s where we’re going, where people want to feel like their leader cares about them. They want to feel like their leader or make space for them to have decision making power. Younger people are given that sort of authority and power in in their schooling nowadays. And so they come ready to be.

00;29;19;12 – 00;29;42;05
Ed Frauenheim
I’m trusted more essentially as opposed to yelled at or told what to do. They want direction, not directions. And that’s, I think, where leadership is going. So it really does dovetail with the idea of introverted leaders who tend to have a lot of those same traits. They’re ready to be humble and listen and guide, but not necessarily micromanage.

00;29;42;23 – 00;29;59;14
David Hall
Yeah. Yeah. And it’s just funny that there’s still plenty of people that holds a certain leaders must be this way. But if you look at it like we’re talking about, people don’t really want that. They want this other leader that introverts could really lean in to use their gifts to be.

00;30;00;00 – 00;30;17;25
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And one of the things we learned and already that’s happening like I think when Jennifer and I wrote this article in the Houston Chronicle about Now is the time for quiet men. Like six out of the ten highest market cap companies were led by introverts, introverted men, and which we need to have more women too.

00;30;17;25 – 00;30;43;00
Ed Frauenheim
But like the including, I think, Warren Buffett fit into that category. Jeff Bezos and Tim Cook of Apple. You know, these are folks that are they’re rising and succeeding because of their introverted skills. You know, none of them are all angels necessarily. We can criticize some of these big these leaders, but something is working about introverted leadership right now.

00;30;44;07 – 00;30;53;16
David Hall
So as you’re doing this series, was there anything like there’s something you believe, but it was nice to have it confirmed as you’re interviewing these different quiet leaders.

00;30;53;16 – 00;31;35;22
Ed Frauenheim
The need for quiet time, I would say like that was almost personally reassuring to me that Chris would like he would just collapse after giving these seminars, even though he loves doing what he does. But he’s he saves out like a week or two weeks for downtime after doing a, you know, a major public facing event. Another fellow in charge at Synchrony talked about how he would put quiet time in his calendar when he was leading a team in the Iron Lady team, I believe at Synchrony, Josh Crawford and that used to be a shameful thing to have to take time for downtime, right?

00;31;35;22 – 00;31;56;11
Ed Frauenheim
To to say, I can’t talk to anybody right now. He sort of, you know, was bold enough to say, I need this time for myself. You put it on his calendar and he put it on the calendar of his teammates. And what’s funny about that is that like then when he got a different job, I think he was moving up to the organization and he had a different team, but his old team is like, Don’t take that time off our calendars like we want.

00;31;56;12 – 00;32;20;14
Ed Frauenheim
We’ve actually come to treasure the focused time or the or the downtime. So even if this team wasn’t all introverts, we when you create that introvert friendly style or culture extroverts often benefit too. So I felt very validated by the idea that it’s okay that I like to take a nap every day. It’s not like a sign of weakness on my part.

00;32;20;14 – 00;32;29;10
Ed Frauenheim
It’s actually an understandable way of recharging and or meeting to take walks and breaks. And I felt I felt better about myself as a result.

00;32;29;10 – 00;32;48;17
David Hall
Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah. You know, I don’t I definitely don’t take naps every day, but prior to the pandemic, I did work from home and then I fully worked from home for a time and there would be some lunch periods where I would take a nap and it was amazing. So I love that example. Why why is there a shame around taking time alone?

00;32;48;17 – 00;33;06;19
David Hall
You know, there has been. And, you know, when we were on the panel together, I shared that that was one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself. And you shared this story is blocking off like the first 90 minutes and just really and there’s a lot of talk about introverts needing time to recharge. So we need that, right.

00;33;06;27 – 00;33;19;15
David Hall
But we also need time to think, time to focus, time to plan, time to be strategic. We need time for a lot of reasons and that’s really cool that it. Did you say that he gave that everybody had the same time.

00;33;20;04 – 00;33;21;26
Ed Frauenheim
Everybody in his team had that time.

00;33;22;07 – 00;33;23;15
David Hall
You know use at the same time.

00;33;24;00 – 00;33;55;26
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. The same time. And they wanted to preserve that time when he wasn’t going to be their leader anymore. You know, and I to your question, David, I think we we have this myth of more is better. It’s deep in our bones, in our in our capitalist system, I would say, or a it’s and I would say a hypermasculine system to to put on my masculinity lends to like more and more and more to be still is to be unproductive is to be useless, you know.

00;33;55;26 – 00;34;17;19
Ed Frauenheim
And in fact, there’s all this, you know, growing amounts of research, that stillness focused time is super productive over time. Like we need to unplug, to reflect, to have the concentration on a particular topic. You know, I think there’s growing attention to that and how powerful that is.

00;34;18;25 – 00;34;41;02
David Hall
Yeah, because there’s been a culture of you have to be available at all times to everybody, but that doesn’t work very well and we’re constantly getting interrupted. It’s really hard to get back into what we were doing. We tend to make more mistakes that way, and it’s not productive and extroverts need the time to evacuate. Well, some focused time could really go a long way.

00;34;41;02 – 00;34;44;00
David Hall
And I love that he did that for his whole team. That’s very cool.

00;34;45;04 – 00;35;16;11
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. Yeah. There’s you know, in the last decade, maybe there’s been more of these books like single tasking and kind of debunking the notion of how you really can effectively multitask because your brain is switching its focus in that there’s a cost, there’s a tax to that shift you to your point. And mistakes happen. And I don’t have this down to a science yet, but I really tried, even though I have multiple projects going on now as a kind of entrepreneur, solopreneur, trying to limit the number of things I’m focused on in one day is super helpful.

00;35;16;23 – 00;35;25;17
Ed Frauenheim
I don’t know if if you add that to it or if you’re able to kind of juggle effectively multiple projects in a day. I What’s your experience like there?

00;35;26;23 – 00;35;45;26
David Hall
Yeah, I have to come up with what’s my most important goals for today, because I could have this you probably could have an endless to do list. You know, we have a lot of great ideas. There’s a lot of things we want to do, but you can only get so much done. So every day I’m like, All right, I got to do these 3 to 5 things.

00;35;45;26 – 00;36;06;05
David Hall
And yeah, these have to get done. If you put a lot more than that, a lot of times you just keep the to do list, just keep going to the next day, the next day. So, you know, you got to focus and sometimes you got to tune other things out. And that can be really hard because you can have yeah, you can have two things that are equally as important, but you can only work on one and you have to decide, okay, I’m going to do this right now.

00;36;06;05 – 00;36;14;29
David Hall
I’m not going to think about this other thing, but I’m going to focus here. And that can be hard to do sometimes because everybody is everybody’s thing is very important to them.

00;36;15;28 – 00;36;41;06
Ed Frauenheim
I, I love what you’re saying there. And I love that 3 to 5 things, sometimes even one, you know. Right, right. The one I’ve gotten rid of noises from my texts, even though it drives my family member sometimes crazy. I’m like, if you wanted to call, if you need to talk to me, call me. I’m not going because text drive me crazy and I was just working with my wife earlier and she’s got a text that comes across her computer screen that something is going on with her family.

00;36;41;06 – 00;36;51;09
Ed Frauenheim
They like totally distracted us from what we were doing. So to your point, I think being able to concentrate is super important for us introverts especially, but it actually is important for everybody.

00;36;51;29 – 00;37;13;25
David Hall
Yeah. Yeah. And alerts we get from so many different places, it’s important to look at those and maybe find ways that, you know, our family can get a hold of us in a kind of a more urgent situation. I’m still working through all that, you know, and not getting notified all the time by everything. It can be so distractive, so distracting, so disruptive.

00;37;15;02 – 00;37;33;07
Ed Frauenheim
I’ve one thing I’ve tried to do is like, have more like check in times when you’re going to look at your texts and emails and yeah, whatever ever that notification is. But to try to turn them off to to the extent you can and if there is a real problem, people call you. I mean, it’s kind of a could there is the telephone still that used to be the way we would call.

00;37;33;07 – 00;37;39;06
Ed Frauenheim
That’s the way we would reach out when we really had a problem. Like it’s like, you know, the bad phone or the the hotline.

00;37;40;05 – 00;37;55;12
David Hall
Yeah, yeah. That’s a great idea. You know, checking emails at certain intervals or if you’re checking your LinkedIn at certain intervals or, you know, not just all the time because it’s really if you’re checking everything all the time, it’s really hard to do anything.

00;37;56;00 – 00;37;56;22
Ed Frauenheim
Yeah. Yeah.

00;37;57;24 – 00;38;12;04
David Hall
Introverts and extroverts, we definitely have different communication styles, we think. And then we speak versus, you know, extroverts. They often speak in order to think how is that important for a leader to understand?

00;38;12;04 – 00;38;53;17
Ed Frauenheim
I think one way that’s important is to give a little more space for people to talk. And I’ve seen that with clients I work with now in terms of some of the communications consulting I do is people who are asking for questions often give very little time for questions to emerge, and that’s in some ways not giving introverts the time they need to reflect, articulate a question, like you said, to think about what really is going to be the most thoughtful way or a thoughtful way to put a question, maybe navigate some politics in the organization, even as in the way they phrase it.

00;38;55;02 – 00;39;40;24
Ed Frauenheim
And we often, you know, assume there’s if there aren’t questions in the first couple of seconds, there’s no questions, you know, which is another yeah, that’s a really a great leadership strategy because there’s probably a lot stirring that you’re not seeing. You know, still waters run deep. So I think one thing is just in the way you’re talking in meetings, I think there is also opportunities to use these asynchronous methodologies for having conversations or figuring things out together, whether it’s email or tools like teams where introverts can thrive in kind of having the opportunity to figure it out on their own time, can contribute an idea or a question.

00;39;42;09 – 00;39;50;22
Ed Frauenheim
And that does allow us as introverts, to take the time we need. It doesn’t have to always be figuring stuff out live in the moment.

00;39;51;17 – 00;40;05;01
David Hall
So your series, it was focused on men and I know you’ve done a lot of work around masculinity. Everything we’ve talking about today can apply to men and women both. Why the focus on men with the series that you did?

00;40;05;01 – 00;40;38;06
Ed Frauenheim
I think because Jennifer and I were realizing that introversion isn’t a one size fits all experience, if you will, or temperament. Yeah, a lot of what we were talking about does apply that. We’ve been talking a lot about introverts stuff in especially. But one of the things that we realized and found in our research is that, you know, men, as we talked about before, that this sort of double whammy of being an introvert male is that, you are expected to be fitting into a leadership culture, you know, an extrovert culture.

00;40;38;18 – 00;41;06;20
Ed Frauenheim
And then also, if you’re an introverted male, you’re typically not going to be that prototypical quarterback who’s, you know, barking commands or they audibles in real time. You’re going to be typically quieter, you know, and less dominant in meetings, probably, maybe more attuned to a more emotional depth than than a lot of the other guys that you’re around.

00;41;07;00 – 00;41;45;07
Ed Frauenheim
So you can feel you can have a lot of shame that you’re you’re experiencing as an introverted man, as a quiet man. You know, in the end, there’s also then we we talk about these strengths that you have as well. But just to kind of look over on the female side of introversion and how some of those challenges play out, you are often considered to be having resting bitsy face because you’re not necessarily expressing with a facial build, with your visage, what people expect to see in a big, you know, friendly group.

00;41;45;07 – 00;42;19;08
Ed Frauenheim
Say, as an introvert, you may not be the same level of emotional expressivity or you’re not necessarily having a bubbly, supportive manner with with other guys and considered again, like to be cold. So there’s these, there’s this, there’s the sexist or the gendered bias that affects introverted folks besides the introversion itself. Right. And so we think it’s valuable to look at how these things play out in an intersectional way to support both men and women.

00;42;19;08 – 00;42;34;27
Ed Frauenheim
And now we want to be thinking about people who are nonbinary too. And I’m not even sure we know what the research says there yet, but it’s at a minimum looking at how introversion intersects with with male and female expectations, I think is valuable.

00;42;35;18 – 00;43;02;07
David Hall
Absolutely. Absolutely. And we’ve talked about so many great things today by fast. It did about, you know, definitely introverts can be amazing leaders brought you know, introverts can bring some amazing things into the workspace if they know what their strengths are and what their needs are, they could be productive. Is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you want to today?

00;43;02;07 – 00;43;17;27
Ed Frauenheim
One thing I guess we did, we didn’t talk much about this, but I do think this is a an important element for a lot of, you know, business leaders to think about that introverted men, you know, in some ways to talk about men at all these days, you know, is raises the question why we talk about men? Isn’t it a men’s world?

00;43;18;09 – 00;43;42;11
Ed Frauenheim
Well, introverted men often are struggling in today’s workplaces. You know, they haven’t had they had typically haven’t been the ones that have been running the show. And we found that when they are given greater attention or support, they often are these allies to other folks that haven’t had a seat at the table either, like women, people of color, LGBTQ folks.

00;43;43;12 – 00;44;00;15
Ed Frauenheim
So there is an interesting way in which I think the conversation can be expanded to look at introversion and and quiet men in particular as folks that are natural allies to other groups. And that that’s kind of an untapped resource. I think, for organizations.

00;44;01;05 – 00;44;24;02
David Hall
Yeah. And you know, another myth is some people say that introverts don’t have a lot to say. But I that we absolutely do have a lot to say because we’re introverts, because we’re always thinking. But unfortunately, a lot of times our voices have been silenced because, you know, we’re looking at that leadership kind of world and we’re thinking that we don’t have a voice.

00;44;24;02 – 00;44;41;20
David Hall
And that’s what this podcast is all about, is really giving a voice because introverts have some amazing ideas. And I will say, and I know you’ll agree with this, it’s like sometimes it’s the different ideas that change things and make things better. And we need to get those ideas out there that many introverts have for sure.

00;44;41;21 – 00;44;53;20
Ed Frauenheim
David, I really appreciate your podcast and the work you’re doing to elevate those voices, amplify those voices. And I couldn’t agree more that it’s time. Now is the time for introverted men and introverted woman. Introverted people.

00;44;54;01 – 00;44;59;29
David Hall
Yes, absolutely. So, Ed, where can people get a hold of you if they want to find out more about the work you do or work with you?

00;45;00;23 – 00;45;05;21
Ed Frauenheim
Finding that LinkedIn is a great way at Brown time. I think I see my spelling somewhere.

00;45;05;28 – 00;45;07;06
David Hall
If I put it in the show notes.

00;45;07;19 – 00;45;34;12
Ed Frauenheim
This is kind of a weird name or hard to pronounce, name or spell name. I also have a website at Brown Time.com. I look for the the series, especially with with Jennifer Conn. While our site has our series about now it’s time for Quiet Men and happy to connect with folks and talk more. Come to give lunch and learns or support organizations as they support introverts in including introverted men.

00;45;35;06 – 00;45;38;17
David Hall
Awesome. Thanks so much. This has been a wonderful conversation today.

00;45;39;09 – 00;45;40;27
Ed Frauenheim
Thanks so much, David. Take care.

00;45;42;07 – 00;46;07;18
David Hall
Thank you so much for joining me. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out to David at quietandstrong.com or check out the quiet and strong dot com website, which includes blog posts, links to social media and other items that may topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you’re interested in getting to know yourself better, there’s now a free type finder personality assessment on the quiet and strong website.

00;46;08;09 – 00;46;25;11
David Hall
This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the four letter Myers-Briggs code. All add a link to the show notes. There’s so many great things about being an introvert, so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.

Recommended Posts