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Show Notes
Are you an introvert trying to navigate the world of marketing? Do you find yourself feeling overwhelmed by extroverted strategies and wondering if there’s a way to effectively promote your business while staying true to your introverted nature?
Well, look no further! In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, David Hall sits down with Jenny Procter, experienced marketing consultant and host of the Marketing for Introverts podcast, to discuss how introverts can thrive as marketers.
Tune in as David and Jenny delve into insightful conversations about how introverts can leverage their unique strengths in the marketing arena. From identifying your values, developing your niche, and crafting a compelling story, to the importance of consistency and engagement, this episode offers practical advice and actionable tips tailored specifically for introverted professionals.
By the end of this episode, you’ll gain a clearer understanding of how to market your business authentically as an introvert. Discover the power of networking, the importance of clear communication, and the value of embracing your introverted strengths. Learn how to forge meaningful connections, define your target audience, and leverage your personal story to engage and attract clients.
If you’re an introvert looking to thrive in the marketing world, this episode is a must-listen. So grab your headphones, listen in, and be strong.
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Jenny Procter is an experienced marketing consultant and host of the successful Marketing for Introverts podcast. She discovered she was an introvert while in a room of extroverts in 2010, and it was truly a lightbulb moment.
As an introvert and small business owner Jenny believes that everyone can find a way to market their business and get more visible in a way that suits them. Her approach is supportive and endlessly practical. She works with service businesses to define their audience, get clarity about their offer and define their niche, before consistently delivering the marketing tactics that work, while resisting the latest shiny marketing tools. She has been described as a safe pair of hands and the person who brings calm and clarity to any marketing challenge.
– – –
Contact Jenny:
Find Jenny at bondfieldmarketing.co.uk, on LinkedIn or search for “Marketing for Introverts” wherever you get your podcasts.
Get Jenny’s Book: Marketing For Introverts
– – –
Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:
David Hall
Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster
quietandstrong.com
Gobio.link/quietandstrong
david [at] quietandstrong.com
Take the FREE Personality Assessment:
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Timestamped Overview
[00:01:28] Jenny Proctor is a marketing consultant, introvert, and podcast host who helps small businesses market themselves authentically. She is known for her practical approach and ability to bring calm to marketing challenges.
[00:03:38] Realized I was introverted later in life, felt out of place in extroverted settings.
[00:06:52] Focus on introverts’ strengths – great listeners, problem solvers, considerate leaders. Shyness and antisocial traits are inaccurate.
[00:11:02] The individual started working for themselves about 10 or 11 years ago, finding they were more effective working alone at home than in a corporate setting. They also mentioned needing time alone to recharge from being around their children.
[00:13:34] Introverts can excel in marketing through targeted strategies.
[00:17:40] The podcast started with interviews and evolved into interesting conversations about marketing and common themes such as introversion.
[00:20:03] Introverted CEOs can still be effective by building relationships and being hands-on with their teams and operations.
[00:24:21] Start with your values as an introvert. Be authentic. Clearly define what you do and who you do it for. Communicate your values and offer on your website. Consider your niche and story.
[00:29:41] It’s important to establish a process for getting to know clients and understanding their priorities. Sharing personal stories can help build rapport, but it’s also okay to set boundaries and focus on professional aspects.
[00:31:51] In summary, professionals should simplify their language and think from the perspective of their clients to effectively communicate their expertise.
[00:33:56] The value of understanding your customer in marketing. Consistency is key. A podcast is easier than a blog for accountability.
[00:37:11] As introverts, it’s important to engage with others on social media, building relationships and sharing interesting content. Focus on your clients and associates rather than trying to reach everyone.
[00:42:48] Having good conversations is important for networking and follow-up. Have a prepared answer for the question, “What do you do?”
[00:45:53] Introverts are diverse and make up a significant portion of the population. They have different strengths and strategies for networking. A practical tip for success is to wear something bright.
[00:48:50] Connect with me at davidquietandstrong.com for further communication, including blog posts, social media links, and guest suggestions. Check out our free Typefinder Personality Assessment on the Quiet and Strong website.
Podcast Transcript
Jenny Procter [00:00:00]:
I mean, there’s so much advice for small businesses and small business owners about marketing their small business is about getting out there. You need to be visible. You need to be, you know, it’s such extrovert friendly advice. And so, well, how how does that work if you If that’s not the way you want to do business, if that’s the not the way you want to you know, we can all occasionally do the extrovert thing just but it’s tiring. You know? You can’t sustain running and marketing a business, you know, if if it doesn’t feel comfortable to you. So So, yeah, so the the book takes, you know, some of the conversations and some of the thinking in that came from the podcast and some of my own stories and experiences and and things that have worked for me as well. But, Yeah. You know, it’s typical advice is very it’s very extrovert, I think.
David Hall [00:00:58]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 142 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, while I are each episode on a Monday, be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review. That would mean a lot to me. Tell a friend about the podcast, and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing.
David Hall [00:01:28]:
Jenny Proctor is an experienced marketing consultant and host of the successful Marketing for Introverts podcast. She discovered she was an introvert while in a room full of extroverts in 2010, and it was truly a light bulb moment. As an introvert and small business owner, Jenny believes that everyone can find a way to market their business and get more visible in a way that suits them. Her approach is supportive and endlessly practical. She works with service businesses to define their audience, Get clarity about their offer and define their niche before consistently delivering the marketing tactics that work while resisting the latest shiny marketing tools. She has been described as a safe pair of hands and a person who can bring calm and clarity to any marketing challenge. Working with hundreds of small businesses in her consultancy, Jenny’s early career was spent in corporate communications roles, organizing government conferences, defending late trains on live radio, And advising NHS and local government leaders. Jenny lives in Staffordshire Village with her 2 children, 1 introvert and one extrovert, And works happily and peacefully in her home office.
David Hall [00:02:40]:
Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Jenny. It’s so good to have you on
Jenny Procter [00:02:44]:
today. Hello. It’s lovely to see you, David.
David Hall [00:02:47]:
Alright, Jenny. We’re gonna talk about marketing for introverts, but, of course, before we do that, let’s hear a little bit more about you and your story being an introvert now helping other introverts with their marketing.
Jenny Procter [00:02:58]:
Yeah. So probably like a lot of introverts listening, I always knew I was something, but I didn’t necessarily have a word for it. When I went to college, more years than I’m gonna confess to you. But when I went off to college, a lot of the, the other friends I met at college had by the end of 1st term, so maybe, you know, 10, 12 weeks into being at college. They had made good friends with the entire campus, and I knew maybe 3 or 4 people, you know. So so I I knew it’s at that point really quite early on that I was different. I wasn’t quite maybe as sociable as some people.
Jenny Procter [00:03:38]:
And when I went off to work, you know, the same thing. I would be sitting in meetings and everybody else was offering their opinions very freely. And I was, you know, thinking about it very deeply and coming up with exactly the right thing to say, you know, after I’d left the meeting. So, you know, I’m sure some of those, scenarios are are familiar to your listeners, but actually getting the name, the word introvert didn’t didn’t come to me till much later. I was probably, I think late thirties maybe, and I did a a personality test as part of a study program I was doing. And, and I realized I was in a room where most of the other students were male. And they were all extroverts, and I was one of very few females, and I was very firmly an introvert, you know, a very long way on the introvert scale. So And I thought, oh, that’s why I don’t feel very comfortable in this room, and that’s why I didn’t feel very comfortable in some of my kinda corporate environment.
Jenny Procter [00:04:35]:
So so, yeah, the word Introvert, they came to me quite late. But even then, it took a little while to realize that that was a good thing. Actually, introversion wasn’t a, you know, a defective extrovert. I think it it probably took until I read Susan Cain’s book Quiet to realize that, oh, yes. We We are great people. There are some great introverts in the world. You know, we can do great things. So, so, yeah, it’s it’s been it’s been quite a a long, gradual process, I guess, of of learning about introversion and that I am indeed an introvert.
David Hall [00:05:06]:
So when you took this personality test, was it like a workshop setting?
Jenny Procter [00:05:11]:
I’m just trying to think now. I think I think it was something that I did you mean, were we all sort of doing it in the room together? Can you imagine where that would be? No. I think it was one of these things we sort took it away, and did it on our own, and then came back. But, yeah, realizing that that, you know, I was I was, you know, hard left on the introvert scale. Okay. Okay. With the extreme end of the scale anyway. So, oh, yeah.
Jenny Procter [00:05:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. Now that that but now I’m now I’m starting to see why this is a slightly, as I say, slightly uncomfortable environment. All these very loud blokes in the room, and that was me.
David Hall [00:05:43]:
Yeah. And then Susan Cain’s been mentioned numerous times
Jenny Procter [00:05:47]:
on the
David Hall [00:05:47]:
show, and and I recommend her book Quiet as well. You know, it was definitely helpful for me and many other people. What caused you to pick up that book?
Jenny Procter [00:05:56]:
I I don’t I don’t remember now because I’ve had it such a long time, and it I mean, I think it came out in twin 2012, something like that. Yeah. I I don’t I don’t have it, Tony, when it when it came out initially, but I don’t remember whether somebody recommend it to to me or whether I was, you know, just browsing online and came across. I I I genuinely can’t remember, but I think it as a book, It made such a huge impact. And I mean, it’s not an easy read, is it? It’s not something you kind of whisk through in a weekend. It’s it’s quite a it’s quite an academic, you know, thorough exploration of of intuition, but it’s made such a difference to, you know, to my to my life, to my work, to my practice. And, yes, when I speak about it to other introverts, exactly the same. You know? Thank goodness.
Jenny Procter [00:06:39]:
Thank goodness that book made such a difference to so many people. I’m like, yeah, I’m definitely one of those.
David Hall [00:06:43]:
What were some keys that made you realize, hey. This is a good thing. You know? How did you embrace your introversion as part of this?
Jenny Procter [00:06:52]:
But I think it’s it’s that focus on on strengths, isn’t it? So it’s it’s not about saying, oh, you’re not very good at this, you’re not very good at that. Introversion introverts but have very in decided strengths. We are great, you know, listeners, problem solvers. You know, we are the people who will get things, you know, thought about and and done and come come back with, you know, some seriously considered ideas to a to a problem. I think Susan Cain talks about about it in kind of leadership terms. Essentially, you know, introverts being very great, very good leaders because they will consider the opinions of everybody in the room, and, you know, they will take time to, to properly kind of unpick and understand a problem. So I I think it’s some of those, kind of those focuses which are really helpful as opposed to the very, very kind of tired and inaccurate The introverts are shy and antisocial. I mean, they all those things are not helpful.
Jenny Procter [00:07:48]:
So, yeah, I think it’s when you start to to realize good examples of of introverts. Oh, yeah. Okay. You know, there there are some really very great strengths that we have as, you know, as as a group.
David Hall [00:08:01]:
Yeah. And that’s the thing, like you said, we’re it’s not about that we’re defective extroverts and that we do have great strengths and that we can do Anything we just might do differently, we might succeed differently, we might have different needs. So let’s talk a little bit more about that. What’s a strength that you’ve discovered for yourself as an Travert.
Jenny Procter [00:08:23]:
I think I I think I’m a good listener. I mean, I would say that, wouldn’t I? Know, I’m sure everybody says that about themselves, but I, you know, I think I, I like listening to a problem, listening to a client and their. You know, as they talk about their business and and trying to unpick that. So I think I think I have the kind of patience to to listen. And I hope I hope I’m empathetic as well. I hope I can kind of, you know, support a client or understand what what their, you know, issues and challenges are. Yeah. I think I’m I’m I’m not sure if I’m the world’s best problem solver.
Jenny Procter [00:08:58]:
You know? I I know some very technical introverts who would say you know? And I would say they are the problem solvers. In my family, they’re 1 or 2 very, very, you know, techie, very, very engineering kind of minded introverts, and I’m not that person, but, I would say I’m I’m I’m a listener and the empathetic person in the, in in my family of introverts.
David Hall [00:09:19]:
Yeah. And we’re all gonna be a little different. I think we share that. You know, we turn inward. We’re deep thinkers. And so you’re listening, but then you’re also giving that Some thought for you and for your clients. And we may not think deeply about the same things or have the same skills, but we all Definitely, a strength is that we’re thinking deeply, that we’re turning inward, and and a lot of good comes from
Jenny Procter [00:09:41]:
that. Yeah. And I think I think as well it’s about being quite self contained. You know, I know plenty of people for whom long periods on their own would be They would they would struggle with it. They will panic with it. Extroverted friends would would I mean, it’s a little while since we were all in lockdown, but, you know, people reacted to that very differently. And and, actually, You know, that’s okay. I, I can, I can be on my own and quite happily on my own, in my own company? So I think, I think, I think That’s, you know, it’s a great strength, isn’t it? I don’t I don’t need to have lots of people around me in order to to be kind of happy and and to function well.
David Hall [00:10:20]:
Yeah. I think that’s key too. It’s sometimes we do need to spend time alone for lots of different reasons. You know, we need to think, Recharge. Be strategic. There’s so many reasons, but then sometimes we don’t mind it. You know? It’s like
Jenny Procter [00:10:34]:
It depends on the people, doesn’t it?
David Hall [00:10:36]:
Let’s be honest. Depends on the people. Yeah. It depends on the people. And I don’t like when the definition is like we we get drained by people. I’m like, well, sometimes, Sometimes not, but it just depends on the situation and, that kind of
Jenny Procter [00:10:50]:
thing.
David Hall [00:10:50]:
Yeah. So part of all this discovery is also, You know, learning what you need. What did you learn that you really needed as an introvert that might be different from an extrovert colleague or friend?
Jenny Procter [00:11:02]:
I started working for myself, about 10 or 11 years ago now, and I think I I had up to that point, I’d worked, I’ve worked in I was working in local government, actually, in a big open plan office, a big team of marketing people in a big organization. And I I stepped away from that, and I started working for myself. And I realized that, actually, I could work very effectively, almost more effectively by myself in my house than in a big, in a, you know, in a big kind of corporate environment. So that, that was an important point. And I think, you know, I have 2 children as well, and There are moments when, bless them, but there are moments when being out of the company of my children, I need to recharge because because they’re very people y people. So So, yeah, you know, I think that there’s the and that’s not to say that my children aren’t amazing, obviously, but but, you know, I think there’s there’s a work context where introversion is you know, you can you can kind of manage that for yourself so you can work for yourself under the family context. And and sometimes it’s okay as well to say within the family context. You know, I need some time on my own now.
David Hall [00:12:07]:
Yeah. That can definitely be tricky because you love your family, But sometimes you need a little bit of space, and that can be tricky to articulate that. Like, hey. You know what? I need this. I love you, but I just need a little space to get this work done or Or just recharge or whatever it is. And that that can definitely be tricky to articulate those needs. This podcast is all about the strengths, needs Introverts, and we also bust myths. You you busted a couple myths that were you know, you said that we weren’t shy.
David Hall [00:12:35]:
Is there any other myths you wanna add to that that are Common out
Jenny Procter [00:12:39]:
there? Oh, there’s plenty. I think one that one that followed me around when I was probably a teenager, is that introverts are stuck up. Maybe it was just me. I don’t know whether this is one that that kind of resonates for other introverts, but we moved house. My family moved house when I was about 11 or 12. When I moved to a different part of the UK, and I didn’t have, the same accent as the other kids. So already I sort of stuck out of it. And I was quite a bookish, you know, I was a reader and a, you know, quite quite quiet.
Jenny Procter [00:13:10]:
And, yeah, the, the kind of the perception that I was stuck up and that, you know, introverts are that they they think a bit better than everybody else. It’s like, oh, and it as I say, followed me around that one, David, for a little while. And it’s not true. It’s just I’m listening. I’m, you know, I’m observing. I’m just I’m not diving in. It’s not that I think I’m better than anybody else at all. It’s just it’s just the way I just the way I’m kind of processing.
Jenny Procter [00:13:34]:
So yeah. And I think the the antisocial thing as well, we’ve talked about that. You know, we we’re not antisocial. We just we just need the right people in the right at the right times, in the right quantities. But the fact is that the introverts can’t do things. You know? We can’t be public speakers, or we can’t, you know, we can’t sell or, you know, some of those things. I I started my marketing for introverts. It started as as a podcast, and I started with the idea that maybe there were types of marketing that some that introverts couldn’t couldn’t do.
Jenny Procter [00:14:11]:
You know, there were things that were were good for us and things that that weren’t, you know, weren’t all, style at all. And the very 1st person I interviewed had been, had done a TED talk, and I thought, oh, well, they go. That’s that’s that’s my myth completely out of the water. You know, she she’s done a TED talk. It’s a very, exposing. It’s a very kind of in the spotlight kind of marketing. So so, yeah, you know, I think I think we can we can do all sorts of things. There are there are plenty of miss.
Jenny Procter [00:14:38]:
We can do anything we like, but, you know, maybe we need to do it in a slightly different way. But I’m say, I’m still never going to do a TED talk. That still terrifies
David Hall [00:14:46]:
me. No. You could do it. And again, it’s just like, I love public speaking, and I learned I did a lot of public speaking with an extroverted friend of mine, and I just noticed the way that we prepared was so different. And but And she definitely wanted to be more spontaneous. And she did, you know, everybody has to prepare to some degree, but I definitely took more time preparing and gave it a lot more thought. And it’s just different. So, you know, we can do whatever we need to do.
David Hall [00:15:16]:
It just might look different. You know, we can be great leaders or great at marketing or whatever, whatever it is. So let’s, let’s talk about that, about the marketing. So you have a podcast Called Marketing for Introverts and a book called Marketing for Introverts. So how did how did you get started with the
Jenny Procter [00:15:32]:
podcast? So the podcast, Well, rolling back a couple years, Marketing for Introverts was was born when I was listening to another marketing consultant talk, and I was at a networking group and she was talking about about her business and her consultancy. And I was listening to her thinking, oh my goodness. Nobody’s ever gonna wanna work with me. She was she was bold. She was bright. She was sassy. She was, you know, she was swearing quite a lot. She was she was a lot of fun, and she was very, kind of, bold and out there.
Jenny Procter [00:16:05]:
And I thought nobody nobody’s gonna wanna work with me because I’m completely the opposite to her. And, a a very wise lady, a coach that I knew actually said, Jenny, while you’re while you were looking at her and thinking She’s she’s great. You know? She’s she’s so much better than I am. I was looking around the room, and for every person who was looking at her thinking, yes. Great. She’s the marketing consultant I would like to work with. Should there were other people for whom, you know, she wasn’t their person. They didn’t like her approach.
Jenny Procter [00:16:33]:
They didn’t like her swearing. You know, they say she just She just was not their person. She and those are your people. I hope that’s really interesting because, you know, as a marketer, kind of taking your audience and and segmenting it. It’s not that that kinda made sense. But I thought, what what what’s the what’s the thing here? What’s different? So I, I made a very bold and unusual step for me, and I contacted the other marketing consultant. We had, we had coffee. And we realized that she was an extrovert, and I was an introvert.
Jenny Procter [00:17:00]:
And and all those you know, and I’d read Susan Cain by that point, you know, all the pennies kinda dropped. So, marketing for introverts, That’s what I am, and that’s that’s what I do. So scroll forward to 2020. And I thought this is this is an interesting conversation. I’d like to have this conversation with with other people, and I’d like to explore this a little bit more. And I I was sort of trying to write blog posts, but I wasn’t very good at, you know, writing enough consistent blog posts. So I thought, I wonder if a podcast is the way to go. And just something about you know, I was able to be much more organized about how how the podcast, kind of went out into the world.
Jenny Procter [00:17:40]:
And it started from there, and it started as some of them were interviews, some of them, you know, some sometimes it’s me talking about a marketing issue, But just so many interesting conversations and conversations I would like to have had anyway, but it’s much easier to contact somebody and say, you want to come on my podcast rather than have you got an hour? We can just discuss that thing that I’m really interested in. So it’s, you know, it’s People are much more like to say yes when you buy them on a podcast. So, yeah, it’s it’s it’s gone it’s gone from there. And, yeah, I just see the interesting conversation And the common themes, you know, I’m sure you have the same thing. People with similar experiences of introversion, similar barriers, similar, You know, barriers have had to kind of overcome other people’s expectations. You know, the same books, as you say, Susan Cain comes up a lot. So So, yeah, it’s it started it started from there, and it’s, it’s it’s still a fascinating conversation every time I every time I speak to somebody new.
David Hall [00:18:36]:
Yeah. So what you said at the beginning there, it’s fascinating because sometimes people think that Everybody wants that extroverted leader, consultant, coach. It’s just not true. I did a couple different things. Like I said, I spoke with the extroverted friend numerous times. I also did with a different person. I did some workshops for many people, And that was the thing that I told myself is that some people are really the extroverts And other similar personality types are gonna relate to her, but there’s gonna be many people that are are not gonna relate to her that are gonna relate to me, and So important to understand, and there’s such a misconception that, oh, everybody wants that. And I’ve said many times on this show that with, like, leadership, Sometimes, the myth out there is that everybody wants the large and in charge person who’s, you know, giving orders and all that stuff.
David Hall [00:19:35]:
And There’s a myth that that’s how leadership should be, but I think in reality, most people do not want that kind of leadership, even though There’s a thought that it should be like that, you know, where an introvert can be an amazing leader, you know, maybe a very good strategic thinker and And lots of other things. So that’s that’s something that we really gotta remember is is maybe back to Susan Cain, it’s kind of like that what she calls the extrovert ideal. Not really true.
Jenny Procter [00:20:03]:
It’s not. Now I that’s really interesting you say that because I’ve worked with a couple of chief executives in my, my employed career, you know, before I started working for myself, who who were you know, when I look back on it, were introverts. And exactly that, they weren’t they’re kind of I like the expression large and in charge. I’m I’m gonna I’m gonna borrow that, but they they weren’t that person at all. What they were very good at and they were both, in it’s kind of public sector organizations, but both very good at building relationships. So these were operational, organizations. We had, you know, teams throughout, You know, a large part of the country, they were very good at kind of dropping in to talk to the, you know, the guys who were driving the ambulances, driving the trains, doing what what whatever actual work of the organization. They were very good at kind of turning up, you know, early in the morning, last thing at night, a night shift if that’s what people are working.
Jenny Procter [00:20:55]:
Just, you know, hi. Just come for coffee. How are you doing? How’s it going? Building those relationships quietly with the people who did the work in the organization, and and could it one to 1 conversation, good in a board meeting where it’s a relatively small number of people. Not great at standing up in front of, you know, hundreds of people delivering a speech. Not that was not kind of natural for either of those guys, but, but very good at that kind of quiet, understated Yeah. I I understated is is is the best word for it, but but kind of 1 on 1 leadership and where everybody in the organization felt they knew these people individually because they’ve worked really hard on those one to 1 relationships. So so yeah. No.
Jenny Procter [00:21:34]:
I I think, you know, some of the best people I’ve worked with in my career have have definitely been, you know, being introverts. And that’s the yeah. There’s so much power in in people who lead like that, I think.
David Hall [00:21:48]:
So again, you have a podcast, Marketing for Introverts, and then you just put out a book, and I’m gonna read the full title here. It says, Marketing for introverts, how to love it, plan it, and do it so that you can quietly and successfully promote your business in a noisy world. I love that.
Jenny Procter [00:22:05]:
Oh, thank you. It’s it’s not the shortest subtitle, is it? But but yeah. Yeah. I mean, so much advice for small businesses and small business owners about marketing their small business is about getting out there. You need to be visible. You need to be you know, it’s such extrovert friendly advice. And so, well, how how does that work if you If that’s not the way you want to do business, if that’s not the way you want to you know, we can all occasionally do the extrovert thing just but it’s tiring. You know? You can’t sustain running and marketing a business, you know, if if it doesn’t feel comfortable to you.
Jenny Procter [00:22:45]:
So So, yeah, so the the book takes, you know, some of the conversations and some of the thinking in that came from the podcast and some of my own stories and experiences and and things that have worked for me as well. But, Yeah. You know, it’s typical advice is very it’s very extrovert, I think. And I was just trying to re redress the balance a little bit for those people that that that didn’t that didn’t work because, you know, get out there more. Do do live video. Oh, it doesn’t you know, that’s not everybody’s thing, is it? Says the 2 of us who who, you know, who have podcasts where we don’t put our faces out there, David. So so maybe maybe I’m glad you’re enjoying your book. It feels like maybe, you know, it was targeted at you as
David Hall [00:23:23]:
well. I say this on all kinds of things that sometimes When you’re trying to be successful or whatever it is, the extrovert advice might not work. Like when I was younger, I read a book on how to overcome shyness, and looking back with what I know now, I’m sure that book was written by an extrovert. And it did it didn’t work. It didn’t work. And I was shy when I was younger. I’m not now. And a lot of my overcoming shyness and some anxiety was Learning who I was as an introvert.
David Hall [00:23:57]:
An extrovert wasn’t gonna tell me that. My first book was Time Management and Productivity for Introverts because I realized There’s something different that we need that’s not being called out in these other time management books I’m reading. And so how can introverts understand themselves to be better at marketing and do things in their way, and why might not extrovert advice work?
Jenny Procter [00:24:21]:
So I think the the values values piece, you know, I should start by thinking about what what are your values as an introvert. Because you know those and if you can articulate those and if you use those in your marketing, then that, you know, that is that’s just a great If you’re pretending to be something you’re not, then that’s just never gonna work. But if you’re really clear that, you know, your values are about, I don’t I don’t know if it’s family or about, great service or that’s not that’s not a brilliant example. Everybody says great service is one of their values, but, You know, if you start from that point, then I think that’s really helpful. If you, if you’re then really clear about what you do and who you do it for because it’s it’s it’s easy to be wooly about those things. So I think I think those 2 points are incredibly helpful, apart from which you know, if you’ve got those things really clearly on your website, then then that’s tremendously helpful. You know? It it it saves a a huge amount of, of explanation if you can be super clear about about your offer. And then really thinking about your your niche and your story.
Jenny Procter [00:25:28]:
You know? And it’s you know, we all we do need to to talk about ourselves as small business owners. You know, there’s I don’t think there’s a way around that. You know, if people want large faces organizations, there are plenty out there. But as small business owners, one of the things that we are competing on, particularly as service business owners, one of the things that we are competing on is It’s ourselves. It’s our experience. It’s our, our personality or expertise. You know, that’s that’s what we’re selling. So we do need to kind of put our faces to that.
Jenny Procter [00:25:56]:
But if you’re really clear about about your story and and why that’s important to you and who you are as a as a person and I I think you’re right. I think some of that comes as you get older. You know, I don’t I don’t think I could have articulated this in my twenties, because I was too busy I was too busy trying to kind of fit in and be divert, and failing miserably. But but I think, you know, I think all of these things become a little bit easier as you get as you get older and you maybe worry a little bit less what the rest of the world thinks about you. Maybe that’s just me. But, I mean, I I then having kind of thought about those areas in, in terms of marketing strategy. I take, read you through, I think, 10 different sorts of marketing tactics, you know, and think about how they could work for you as an introvert. And, you know, that includes, you know, includes video.
Jenny Procter [00:26:44]:
It includes public speaking. It will include social media. So, you know, how to make these things work for you as an intro because, you know, they can all work for you as you you know, we’ve both said. It’s about finding the right way to do it, to do it for you. But yeah. You know, it’s it’s about finding a way to be comfortable showing up as yourself in your marketing because to do anything else is just
David Hall [00:27:06]:
unsustainable. Yeah. And so I think that getting older is definitely a key and
Jenny Procter [00:27:11]:
Exactly. That’s lucky, isn’t it? Because that’s what
David Hall [00:27:13]:
I’m saying. Yeah. Being yourself and and not caring so much about what other people think, But in combination with understanding yourself, you know, coming to understand who you are, your natural strengths. We talked earlier, Before we started about kids and, you know, that we have introvert and extrovert children, and it comes to them naturally. They’re their own people, And that is just really key. So understanding your natural abilities and also getting older helps too. So what might Still introverts be fearful about when it comes to
Jenny Procter [00:27:47]:
marketing. I think when I speak to clients as a real reluctance to put their face on anything. The number of new clients I start working with and I look at their website and they’re they’re very often Service businesses are often, you know, accountants or architects or lawyers or, you know, they’ve got they’ve got serious experience, and they’re they’re they’re good at what they do, but they do not want to put their face on their website. So I think that’s that’s a fear. I think Social media, I think people find draining very often. Networking is another thing that that, you know, often people are not very comfortable doing. So So, and I’d love to be able to say to any of my, you know, any of my clients, that’s fine. You don’t have to do any of those things.
Jenny Procter [00:28:34]:
I’m afraid I I can’t let anybody off the hook In any of those, you know, you really do need to put your face on your website if you’re asking people to buy from you. But it’s you know, there there are there are ways to do that more comfortably, or, you know, sometimes it’s about getting the rights the right help to get you through that. You know, if if you’re putting an awful photograph of yourself on your website, then it is gonna be a little bit difficult. But, yeah, actually, if you find a great photographer who will take a great photo of you, then it’s a little bit easier. So it’s yeah. I think that, you know, those are some of the common fears. It’s about having having. Having a face, you know, oh, I don’t want to see myself.
Jenny Procter [00:29:08]:
It’s like, well, nobody’s looking at you quite as critically as looking at yourself. So actually, you know, there are ways we can do this. So, yeah, sometimes it’s about adopting the the way that you’re doing the marketing, and sometimes it’s about understanding that nobody else is as I say, nobody else is looking at you in the same depth and with the same in a critical eye that you’re looking at yourself.
David Hall [00:29:30]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So how do you help people understand their story and and and sharing their story?
Jenny Procter [00:29:41]:
I mean, it there’s a process at the start of, you know, getting to know a client and and and talking to them, listening to them, and what’s what’s important to them. And part of that is about me talking about my story and, you know, my my family and, you know, very often Say, you know, we’re talking about our children. That’s tip that’s a typical conversation. I’m very often talking to people about their families, you know, what they enjoy. So So you kind of can build it up from there, but it it’s also about being clear what you’re not going to talk about. You know, you are allowed to get through your, you know, professional life and your marketing life without talking about your children. If that’s if that’s an absolute barrier, you know, it’s kind of developing your your story when you about marketing yourself is is not just about, I am gonna talk about this, but, yes, I say, you are allowed to put kind of very firm barriers, you know, around your relationships or about your, you know, from but it might be that that you want to talk about your you know, why you started your business or the The reason that you’re so passionate about, you know, doing things the way that you do or serving the clients that you serve. And it might be that you don’t wanna talk about your kids, but you’re quite happy to talk about your dog, for example.
Jenny Procter [00:30:50]:
So it’s it’s finding those those human and relatable things that make you different from, You know, the other accountant or the other architect yeah. There’s always somebody else isn’t there doing what we do, but it’s it’s just about talking about your yourself and what makes you human and different and that other people will go, oh, yeah. That’s the person I want to work with. In a in a sea of brilliantly qualified lawyers, You know, this is the person that I could work with or a sea of brilliantly qualified pensions advisers. You know, this is the person I resonate and I connect with. So, yeah, it’s, know, it’s about it’s about finding the the thing that makes them tick. But, yeah, not feeling that you have to kinda spill your entire life story over over LinkedIn because that’s, you know, that’s not appropriate. Nobody want, you know, some people do that, actually, don’t they? But but you don’t have to do that.
Jenny Procter [00:31:38]:
That’s, you know, that that’s not, that’s not essential in your marketing, but, you know, put put the barriers where you want the barriers. That’s absolutely
David Hall [00:31:45]:
fine. Yeah. And then maybe it’s the next step, but how do you help them Get clarity on what they’re offering.
Jenny Procter [00:31:51]:
This is a really interesting one, isn’t it, with with professional services people particularly? Because Very often, they’ve they’ve spent years kind of getting to kind of getting to grips with their own professional expert. You know, they’re real But, you know, if I’m working with somebody who’s, you know, in their forties and they’ve been doing what they do since you know, and and training for it for 20 years, then they’re a real expert. So sometimes it helps that I don’t know very much about pensions or accounts or architecture, and I it because their clients won’t necessarily know a great deal about this. So it’s asking a really sort of simple question. So what is it what is it you do? What does that mean? What’s the transformation that you offer? You know so so trying to kinda keep them away from the professional jargon that every industry has, every profession has, and and trying to kinda keep it really, Yeah. Not simple because these these aren’t sort of simple professions that you know, their clients’ businesses aren’t simple, but it’s trying to trying to kind of get the the clarity that their new clients will have. You know? It’s it’s trying to it’s trying to think like their client as opposed to thinking like the expert that they are, which is which is a difficult leap sometimes, but it’s, you know, it’s it’s important. Otherwise, they’re writing a website or they’re writing a social media post, that’s full of kind of technical expertise, but it’s not answering the client’s it’s not answering the client’s questioning.
Jenny Procter [00:33:15]:
So sometimes the the conversation is When they first start talking to a client, what are the typical questions? You know, When do I need to do a tax return or how do I do a VAT what what, you know, whatever the the entry kind of questions are for, it’s it’s thinking about those, and answering those questions rather than kind of getting, mired deep in the in the, you know, the technical complexities of of what it is they do. But yeah. No. That can be that can be really hard when you’re an expert in your in your
David Hall [00:33:45]:
area. Yeah. And then how would you summarize? So in your book, you lay out A framework for marketing, you know, especially for introverts. How would you summarize that?
Jenny Procter [00:33:56]:
I say I mean, I think it’s it’s back to those kind of the values as the basis of the of your marketing thinking, you know the ‘who’ Are you serving and really understanding your your customer, your potential client, and what it is, how it is that you help them, and then say that that niche and that story kind of piece. And I think if you’ve got those kind of 5 elements, I think that’s a, you know, that’s a really great great part. The challenge, of course, is is keeping going because we can all do great marketing for a week or for a couple of weeks, and it’s it’s the It’s a kind of consistent approach in marketing, which is which is hard. You know? But I find it hard as well to kind of keep it. That’s why I didn’t do a blog, because I was talking to be consistent with it. That’s why that’s why I started a podcast because, you know, I I knew I could do it because I brought somebody else in to help me, actually. They would you know, sometimes it’s about having other people hold us accountable, having somebody that you know is gonna help you with a fortnightly podcast as opposed to promising yourself that you’re right to blog. So, So, yeah, that, you know, that consistently is is is a challenge, and I’ve there’s some kind of thoughts in the book about how you how you do that.
Jenny Procter [00:35:05]:
But, yeah, acknowledging that that’s hard. And when you run a business by yourself, you know, sometimes marketing is the thing that goes first. You know, if you’ve got clients to deal with all financial issues to deal with or staffing issues to deal with. Sometimes the marketing is the thing that falls to the bottom of your list. So, yeah, you know, understanding and acknowledging that’s where Small business owners often find themselves, I think, you know, I’m I’m not I’m not trying to preach perfection to anybody who is, who is trying to juggle all the things in their business.
David Hall [00:35:33]:
So like you said, you lay out, you know, 10 different areas where introverts could look at for their marketing, and you mentioned social media. What advice are you giving for introverts on social media and how to be effective with it?
Jenny Procter [00:35:48]:
I think there’s a danger, isn’t it, that we all try to be on too many platforms. You know, there’s always there’s always the next bright, shiny social media platform. You know? I don’t know about you. I tried to stay away from TikTok. I have a teenage child. He would be mortified if I tried to do anything at all. So that’s really easy. You know, I can I can stay away from that one?
David Hall [00:36:09]:
But I think I was told that I I couldn’t be on TikTok with my kids. So anyway
Jenny Procter [00:36:13]:
Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same. So that’s fine. So that’s easy.
Jenny Procter [00:36:17]:
But, I mean, it’s it’s tempting always to think, oh, I I need to do all of those things. You don’t need to do one of those things. You know? Pick the pick the places, maybe the 2 places or or yeah. Maybe 2, but 3 if you absolutely have to, but 2 is plenty, where your clients are, where your clients are and be there and and do it well, because if you’re trying to spread yourself across too many places, that’s just that’s just too tiring. So, and then You don’t you don’t have to post every day, but if it’s if it’s a case of kind of 2 or 3 times a week, keep it consistent. You know, use elements of your story, try to be as as engaging, and it’s not just about your own content. It’s about talking to other people, isn’t it? It’s about, You know, I think you and I have come across each other on LinkedIn not just because I was interested in what you were saying, you were interested in what I was saying, but because we’re both interested in other introverts as well. So it’s it’s not just about your own stuff.
Jenny Procter [00:37:11]:
It’s about finding the other people who are saying interesting things in your space, and and you’re engaging with it. And that’s what we’re really good at that as as introverts. You know, we’re really good at building those relationships. So use those kind of skills that you have, to build relationships in in the same way on social media. But, yeah, don’t just post your own content, but, you know, engage with other people’s content, content that’s interesting to you, Interesting conversations are things, again, things that are relevant to your your clients. I mean, I as a rule of thumb, I try to always engage with with know, people who are my clients and my associates. And, you know, so I I’m turning up for my people as opposed to feeling like I’m trying to talk to the whole world. I think that’s just think that’s just really helpful.
Jenny Procter [00:37:52]:
So so kind of treat it as an extension of my, my, you know, other networks, rather than thinking about it as something else that’s very separate. So, yeah, I, you know, I seek out people that I know and I like, and I and I try and talk to them.
David Hall [00:38:05]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s that’s great advice because sometimes you hear, like, well, you just You gotta do everything, and that’s not the case. And you’re not trying to talk to the whole world. That’s that’s really important too. You need to find who it is that, You know, needs your help. You mentioned LinkedIn.
David Hall [00:38:20]:
Yeah. There’s a there’s a group of introverts there that share some or introvert thought leaders that share some great great information and great Great advice and all and all of that. So you kinda you’re not trying to talk to the whole world, and sometimes I think that, you know, we try to do that.
Jenny Procter [00:38:35]:
Yeah. We but you never quite know who’s He’s looking at your content either because it it can be really easy to think, oh, I didn’t get very many, you know, likes on that post. And I I bumped into, Gosh. Earlier this year, I was randomly outside this train station in London. Now I don’t live anywhere near London, David. I don’t I don’t go to London very often. And completely randomly, I bumped into a colleague, somebody I had not worked with in 10 years. She was going for a train.
Jenny Procter [00:39:01]:
I was, you know, coming away from the station. It was a very Strange kind of moment. And we stood there and looked at each other. Is is this really and one of the first things she said was after we, you know, Imagine fancy meeting you outside Houston station. Should you’ve been talking about introverts and marketing for introverts. That’s your thing. And I thought, my goodness me, I haven’t spoken to you in such a long time, and there you are outside the station in the middle of London, telling me that you’ve been keeping an eye on what I do on on social media. So don’t get despondent when it feels like nobody’s looking because actually people are people are just, yeah, keeping an eye on you even if they’re not commenting or even if they’re not, you know, liking your your stuff.
Jenny Procter [00:39:44]:
So you never quite know who’s, who’s looking, which is one of the most frustrating things about social media. But it it has it’s yeah. It it has an interesting interesting power like that. So, so, yeah, don’t don’t get discouraged, I guess, is is my message from that particular
David Hall [00:40:00]:
conversation. Yeah. I’ve had that experience. It’s like I I I’ve more than once where I, you know, saw a friend of mine that I don’t see all the time, it’s like, oh, I love your podcast, And I’m thinking, and not one
Jenny Procter [00:40:13]:
like? Thanks,
David Hall [00:40:14]:
yeah. But it’s a really good example. Like, you don’t know who’s Who’s watching, listening, and benefiting because they’re not always going to like or even comment. So that’s that’s really good to remember that I had another guest on and she was saying, well, there’s a lot of lurkers out there that are Yeah. You know, that are not engaging, but they are Engaging in in liking or commenting, but they’re they are reading and enjoying and benefiting from
Jenny Procter [00:40:40]:
your work. And it’s kind of it’s going in, isn’t it? And at the point at which They want you or need you or they’re recommending something, you know, that you you never you you just never know. As I say, it’s one of it’s one of the frustrating things about social media. Of the frustrating things about marketing, you know, you never quite know which bit is working, but something something is working
David Hall [00:40:58]:
somewhere. Yeah, absolutely. So is there anything else? We talked a lot about marketing for introverts, you know, with your podcast, with your book. Is there any other marketing for introverts type advice that you wanna share?
Jenny Procter [00:41:11]:
Networking. What I don’t know what your view is of networking, David. It’s it is one of those conversations that a lot of introverts go, oh my goodness. It’s my it’s my least favorite thing ever, and I avoid it like the plague. I don’t I don’t know if you’ve done much networking.
David Hall [00:41:26]:
So I think that we network differently. You know, you talked about a previous CEO that was really skilled at 1 on 1. I think that we need to remember that as far as like a networking event. I don’t really enjoy the going in and bouncing around from person to person. I think there’s a lot I’ve had a lot of people on my show talking about networking, so there’s different things you can do. There’s different but what it comes down to for me is, What’s your goal for networking? Yeah. And it might be different than your extroverted friend. You know? Like, if I go with the extroverted friend to an event, She might want to meet a 100 people all at once and, you know, and remember them and
Jenny Procter [00:42:09]:
great. That expression, isn’t it? Work work the room. So, oh, I could Yeah. Work the room. Life depended on it.
David Hall [00:42:14]:
Yeah. But if I go to a networking event and I have 1 or 2 really great conversations, They could be with someone I already know and I get to know them better, or it could be with somebody new. You know? That’s probably I’m probably gonna be pretty happy. An extrovert probably will not be happy meeting a couple people at a big networking event. And there’s other ways, you know, we’ve talking about social media. I I love my podcast, you know, talking to great people like you. This is a form of networking for me. I love meeting new people that share interests and and goals.
David Hall [00:42:46]:
And so there’s lots of things like that.
Jenny Procter [00:42:48]:
So and sometimes it’s a good way, isn’t it, to have a good conversation about something? You couldn’t just send the message. Like, do you wanna come and have a a chat for an hour about something? Actually, it’s much easier to say, come come come on the podcast. But now I agree with you about about the the networking. I think Sometimes it’s in the preparation, isn’t it? It’s it’s thinking who is going to be there, and that’s that’s the 2 or 3 people that I just want to say hello to, just want to, you know, see face to face and and it then it’s in the follow-up because it’s much easier than to, you know, connect to them later on to in or send them an email or, you know, arrange to have a kind of, you know, a one to 1 where it’s just the 2 of you over a coffee. So, yeah, I think it’s how you how you use it. But I So we appreciate that people find it very, very difficult. The other thing I think is a good somebody somebody is gonna say to you, what is it what what do you do? What do you do, David? What do you do, Jenny? And you need to have your answer down for that, don’t you? You just need to have the kind of two line piece that says this is what I do because Yeah. Don’t don’t get flummoxed by somebody asking you what you do.
Jenny Procter [00:43:51]:
That that’s you just need to have that script in your head a little bit, which is which is not always very comfortable, but, but That’s just part of your toolkit, I think, when you walk into a networking
David Hall [00:44:01]:
event. Yeah. And that’s something to understand about introverts. We think before we speak. We like to think ahead of time. And if you don’t have that ready, you could feel on the spot and just Sometimes not even come up with anything to say. And so that’s a key to knowing, you know what? I’m a great thinker. I don’t always Think on the spot.
David Hall [00:44:22]:
So if I go to this event and I have something ready to say, I might have a couple interesting things I want to talk about. But, you know, don’t feel boxed in. Like, you know, I I don’t live my life in a scripted way, but just to No.
Jenny Procter [00:44:37]:
But it’s
David Hall [00:44:37]:
it’s easy. Ready. You have some things ready Talk about and not not get put on the spot because that’s that was a huge discovery for me is, You know, not being ready for those kinds of questions or in so many areas of life and and not realizing, hey, you know what? You think before you speak. It’s a good thing. You’re you’re coming up with great answers. You’re solving problems. You’re being creative, but your gift isn’t just to think out loud, you know, and that’s not your gift, but you do have a gift, and you just have to use it and understand how you have to prepare for it.
Jenny Procter [00:45:15]:
Work to that Yes. Absolutely. Spontaneous. I’m not sure I’d be great at standup. I’ve never tried it, but I’m not sure how it would be.
David Hall [00:45:22]:
You know, I I don’t know either. That that comes up. Like, stand up and improv come up on this show where introverts have used that to and then, like, and, you know, the improv one kinda puzzles me because it’s like, alright. Well, I’m not good at thinking on my feet, so would I be good at Improv. But there’s a lot of guests that have been on here that are introverts and are comedians, and it’s it’s interesting, or or actors and, You know? Get lots of myths out there. Introverts can be
Jenny Procter [00:45:53]:
It genuinely takes all sorts of it, but we’re a big chunk of the population. There’s no there’s no reason why all introvert should think and act and behave the same because, I mean, it depends what what you read, but we’re, you know, 40%, 50% of the population. So, yeah, I guess I guess we’ve all got we’re all at different strengths, but Yeah. Yeah. That that sounds terrifying to me. But, yeah, I I, you know, I I like to be a little bit prepared for networking event to have an answer to, and what is it that you do? Because, because I I’m gonna be asked that. But, yeah, you know, sometimes going to a networking event with an extrovert friend because I think that you can just gonna say around with them. Sometimes I tell you my very practical tip, actually, David, for for, success in a networking phase is wear something very bright.
Jenny Procter [00:46:33]:
Maybe this doesn’t work for guys in the same way, but I can walk into a room with wearing something bright red or bright pink or bright green like I’m wearing today, and, people even if they don’t get you know, I don’t have to talk to people that they know they know I’m there because they’ve seen me because I’m the, you know, I’m the girl in the bright red jacket or whatever. So That’s, that’s a that’s a sort of see sneaky dressing for success type type type tip, which as I say, might not work for guys because you I’ll have
David Hall [00:46:59]:
to try it. I
Jenny Procter [00:47:00]:
haven’t tried it. I’ll try it. I’ll try it. I’ll try it again. Okay. Let me know how that goes.
David Hall [00:47:05]:
We talked a lot about a lot of great things today. It’s Strengths of introverts, marketing for introverts. Is there anything else you wanna add, Jenny?
Jenny Procter [00:47:12]:
No. I’m good. No. That’s that’s been that’s been fascinating. It’s always interesting, isn’t it, to talk to other introverts because we we get each other in a way. Yeah. Sometimes our our our nearest and dearest extroverts don’t always quite go, so it’s it’s always a pleasure to talk to a a like minded
David Hall [00:47:31]:
person. That’s for sure.
Jenny Procter [00:47:32]:
Arizona, but all the way to the UK.
David Hall [00:47:33]:
That’s right. That’s for sure. And that’s part of it. For far too long, you know, we’ve felt I shouldn’t say that. So not all introverts have felt misunderstood. Some have never felt misunderstood, but many of us have. And for far too long, we’ve Been misunderstood. And it’s really nice to have conversations like this where you feel understood.
David Hall [00:47:55]:
So I definitely Have felt that way talking with you today, and it’s it’s been really nice.
Jenny Procter [00:48:00]:
I see. Yes. Yes. Me too. It’s, So there’s there’s always a lot we could talk about, isn’t it? And we don’t do we, yeah, we don’t do the small talk. We’re straight into the big the big important stuff about about each of it. So yeah. No.
Jenny Procter [00:48:12]:
Absolute
David Hall [00:48:12]:
pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. It was funny. I had a guest on one time and we, you know, we were talking before I hit record and she’s like, alright, well, we got that small talk out of the way. And it was just it was it was funny. It was funny. Alright.
David Hall [00:48:23]:
And, of course, Jenny, where can people find out more about the great work that you do and your book and your
Jenny Procter [00:48:29]:
podcast? Thank you. So I guess the the best place to connect With me would be on LinkedIn. It’s Jenny Procter, Procter with an e, slight strange spelling. And if you if you go on to Amazon and look up marketing for introverts, you will find me there.
David Hall [00:48:43]:
Alright. Well, thank you again for being on the show. This has been a wonderful conversation.
Jenny Procter [00:48:48]:
Thank you ever so much for your time. It’s been great.
David Hall [00:48:50]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david (at) quietandstrong.com Or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts, links to social media and other items. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you’re interested in getting to know yourself better, there’s now a free Typefinder Personality Assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code. I’ll add a link to the show notes. There’s so many great things about being an introvert, so we need those to be understood.
David Hall [00:49:28]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.
David Hall, M.Ed. is a speaker, author, and host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, where he interviews thought leaders, creatives, and professionals who help introverts thrive. With over 25 years in higher education, David has led workshops, trainings, and presentations on productivity, personality, and introversion. His mission is to help introverts honor their needs, understand their strengths, and succeed on their own terms. He is the author of Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts and a passionate advocate for creating work environments where introverts can do their best work.
