Listen Now
Show Notes
Are organizations truly measuring what matters when it comes to employee performance? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall welcomes Jane Gachucha, certified fraud examiner and founder of Introverts Empowered, to uncover how companies can optimize their workforce by recognizing and leveraging the reflective strengths of introverts.
You’ll discover why traditional evaluation systems often miss out on the real value introverts bring, and how slight shifts in organizational processes can unlock significant gains in innovation, productivity, and leadership diversity. Jane Gachucha shares insights from both research and her own audit experience, highlighting ways that flawed systems can unintentionally overlook strong contributors—and what leaders can do to correct this.
Tune in to gain new language for talking about introvert strengths, concrete strategies to build better workplaces, and inspiration to embrace your authentic self in the office and beyond. Listen in, learn how to audit the system—not the person—and be strong.
Unlocking the Value of Introverts: My Conversation with Jane Gachucha
Welcome back to The Quiet And Strong Podcast! In this week’s episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Jane Gachucha, a certified fraud examiner, organizational audit expert, and founder of Introverts Empowered. Jane’s two decades of auditing experience, combined with a deep understanding of introversion, have led her to champion a powerful message: our workplace systems must change—not introverts themselves.
If you’ve ever felt overlooked because you weren’t the most vocal in the room, this conversation is for you. Let’s dive in and unpack the key insights from my thought-provoking discussion with Jane.
Rethinking Workplace Systems: It’s Not About Changing Introverts
The heart of my interview with Jane lies in a radical but necessary idea: to truly unlock productivity and innovation, organizations must audit and rethink how they measure talent. Too often, performance reviews, hiring processes, and promotion decisions reward visibility—being loud, constantly networking, and speaking up in meetings—over actual value and thoughtful contribution.
As Jane put it, “We have to prioritize value over visibility.” She reminded me (and our audience) that organizations have been losing billions because nearly 57% of their workforce—introverts—are systematically under-optimized. Jane’s research, and her hands-on work, have proven that measuring introverts by extrovert standards leads to underperformance, whereas the right system can turn introverts into competitive advantages.
Jane’s Journey: From Kenya to Championing Introverted Strength
Jane’s story started in Kenya, where limited career options led her into accounting. After moving into auditing, she thrived in one-on-one client interactions, which played to her reflective, relationship-focused strengths. But Jane’s awakening to the structural barriers introverts face came during her work on a women’s council, where she helped revise job descriptions that unfairly excluded women—changing the criteria so that more women mechanics could be hired.
This experience made Jane realize that success or failure isn’t just about the individual, but about the system grading them. She would later discover, through the classic book Quiet by Susan Cain, that her introversion wasn’t a flaw, but a difference in how she processes and contributes value.
Discovering and Embracing Reflective Strength
Like many introverts, Jane went through a journey of self-discovery. After taking the Myers-Briggs assessment in college and again years later (both times confirming her INFJ type), she finally had language for her strengths: advocacy, systems thinking, and deep analysis.
Jane has since reframed introversion as “reflective strength”—a term I love, because it moves the conversation away from what introverts aren’t to what we concretely offer: strategic thinking, seeing hidden gaps in systems, and driving high-value results. Her advocacy today focuses on ensuring organizations recognize and measure these reflective strengths, rather than relying on outdated visibility metrics.
Busting the Biggest Myth: Yes, Introverts CAN Lead
One major myth Jane and I discussed is the idea that introverts can’t be effective leaders. Not only is this false, but extensive research—including a 2024 study Jane cited—shows that introverted employees are often more productive, but receive lower performance ratings due to visibility-focused evaluation systems.
Jane’s point is clear: leadership isn’t about being the loudest in the room. In fact, introverted leaders are often the most thoughtful, fair, and effective—if only organizations measure what really matters.
From Auditing Financials to Auditing Talent Systems
Jane’s unique vantage point comes from her background in forensic auditing. Where others see profit-and-loss statements, she looks deeper, at the underlying transactions. She applies this same philosophy to talent systems, identifying what she calls “post-assessment measurement drift”—the disconnect between what strengths assessments reveal (depth, thoughtfulness, analytical ability) and what gets rewarded at review time.
Her call-to-action is not for introverts to change, but for organizations to audit their systems. When companies measure both value and contribution—not just visibility—they unlock hidden talent and stem the tide of quiet contributors walking out the door.
Practical Solutions: Structural Change and The Power of Writing
Jane’s solutions are powerfully practical. She’s a proponent of incorporating written components into interviews and evaluations, recognizing that many introverts express themselves more effectively in writing. This simple adjustment levels the playing field and captures strengths that might be missed in a traditional face-to-face interview.
Additionally, Jane’s diagnostic tool—the Measurement Reality Cards—helps leaders quickly assess whether their systems overvalue visibility and under-recognize reflective strengths. These resources, available on her Twitter, are actionable steps any forward-thinking leader can use to start auditing their own talent systems.
Advice for Introverted Leaders and Organizations
For introverts aspiring to lead, Jane offers reassurance: “Being an introvert is already an authentic advantage.” She encourages fellow introverts to understand and articulate their unique strengths and to judge organizational fit—does this company value strategic contribution or merely vocal participation?
For organizations looking to do better, her advice is to shift toward measurement systems that reward thoughtful contributions, problem-solving, and strategic judgment, not just those who speak most in meetings.
A Personal Takeaway: Value Over Visibility
One powerful reflection I shared in our conversation is how workplace systems often mistake volume for value. When I began my career, I struggled with the expectation to “speak up more.” Over time, I realized my contributions—while less frequent—were often more deeply considered and impactful. Like Jane, I hope more workplaces learn to see and reward these contributions.
Here are a few more key takeaways from this episode:
- Organizations often undervalue introverts by focusing on visibility instead of actual contribution and value.
- Jane Gachucha emphasizes that the solution isn’t to change introverts, but to improve the systems that evaluate and promote employees.
- Reflective strength—like deep thinking and strategic analysis—is a major asset, and companies should measure for these qualities rather than just vocal participation.
- Performance review systems often unintentionally overlook introverted employees due to outdated or biased evaluation methods.
- Jane Gachucha encourages leaders to audit their systems and use tools like the Measurement Reality Cards to ensure they are rewarding the right strengths.
- Introverted leaders bring valuable skills to the table, including thoughtful decision-making and strong judgment, and organizations benefit when these strengths are recognized and leveraged.
Make Changes Now
Here are a few actions you can take immediately after listening to this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast with Jane Gachucha:
- Evaluate Your Own Workplace (or Team) Systems:
Take a moment to reflect on how your organization, team, or even classroom measures “value” versus “visibility.” Are decisions, promotions, or opportunities based more on who speaks up the most, or who provides the greatest results? Consider ways you could shift focus towards actual contributions and deep thinking, as Jane Gachucha suggests. - Advocate for Different Evaluation Methods:
If you’re in a place to do so, propose small changes—like including written interviews or giving questions in advance for interviews—to help introverts showcase their strengths. Jane Gachucha highlights that some candidates express themselves best in writing or after having time to reflect. - Embrace and Communicate Your Reflective Strengths:
If you’re an introvert, recognize your reflective, deep-thinking abilities as authentic strengths, not weaknesses. Start articulating this value in your performance reviews, daily conversations, or leadership discussions. - Share the Lesson with a Colleague or Leader:
Talk about what you learned with someone in your workplace—especially HR, management, or anyone who influences hiring or promotion decisions. Sharing the episode or Jane Gachucha’s key points can help spread awareness about measuring value, not just visibility. - Connect with Jane or Explore Her Tools:
Visit Jane Gachucha’s profile on X (@IntroEmpowered) to find resources like the Measurement Reality Cards, which are designed to help identify whether your workplace is truly recognizing the right strengths.
By taking even one of these steps, you’ll be moving toward a more inclusive and effective environment for both introverts and extroverts!
Unlocking the Strengths of All Employees
Jane Gachucha’s work and our conversation shine a light on a critical challenge and a huge opportunity for businesses everywhere. If we shift away from a one-size-fits-all (and often extrovert-centered) assessment model, we can harness the full potential of our teams—introverts and extroverts alike.
For introverts listening: the way you think, listen, and create is powerful. Don’t change who you are—let your strengths shine and seek environments that measure what truly matters.
For leaders: audit your systems. Make space for reflective strength. The return on investment is real, and your organization might just find its overlooked superstars.
If you want to explore Jane’s resources, be sure to visit her Twitter @IntroEmpowered for the latest research, articles, and practical guides.
And don’t forget to subscribe to The Quiet And Strong Podcast for insights, strategies, and inspiration for introverts—because when we embrace who we are, everyone wins.
Timestamped Overview
00:00 Jane Gachucha, founder of Introverts Empowered and certified fraud examiner, highlights the $322 billion productivity loss from under-optimized introverts, advocating for tailored workforce strategies to unlock their competitive advantage.
06:37 Discovering introversion through the INFJ type and Susan Cain’s book “Quiet” brought self-understanding and validation.
09:45 INFJ advocate specializing in systems thinking to help organizations identify and support overlooked, thoughtful contributors.
12:18 Personality is stable, but understanding it enables growth and meaningful change.
16:11 Networking drained me, but Susan Cain’s book helped me realize my introversion wasn’t a flaw. I saw bias against quiet leadership, identifying it as a systemic issue, leading to the creation of Introverts Empowered.
21:23 Extroverts often receive more job offers, but introverts excel through their analytical and innovative skills, highlighting the importance of valuing both traits in the workplace.
22:19 Interviewers often favor outgoing candidates, but competencies like effective client relationships can challenge biases against introverts.
29:20 Introverts possess authentic advantages in leadership, including deep thinking, thoughtful decision-making, and clarity. Effective leadership values strategic contribution over vocal frequency.
31:12 Understanding your strengths allows introverts to embrace visibility in ways that suit their personality, such as engaging in smaller groups instead of large crowds.
34:03 Introverts should embrace their strengths, while leaders can explore evaluation alignment tools like Measurement Reality Cards and articles on Talent Culture. Connect on Twitter @IntroEmpowered.
Podcast Transcript
Jane Gachucha [00:00:00]:
So the way we can fix it is by not changing introverts and looking at the systems. So we have to look at the employees’ work in terms of how they’re working, their productivity level, and not just necessarily if they are participating or they’re being vocal. In meetings. So we have to look at value more than visibility. So we have to prioritize value over visibility.
David Hall [00:00:46]:
Hello, welcome to episode 267 of The Quietest Strong Podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall, and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts, along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or rating. That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show.
David Hall [00:01:15]:
Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there. That introversion is a beautiful thing. Jane Gachucha is a certified fraud examiner bringing 20+ years of Fortune 500 organizational auditing experience to workforce optimization. As founder of Introverts Empowered and McKinsey Forward Scholar, she discovered that companies are losing $322 billion annually in productivity while 56.8% of their workforce introverts are systematically under-optimized. Jane’s audit career proved that when introverts are measured by extrovert standards, teams underperform, but when placed and evaluated correctly, they create measurable competitive advantage. Professionals in McKinsey Forward’s Core Skills Program, Jane transforms decades of audit findings into proprietary optimization strategies that Fortune 500 CHROs use to audit and improve their talent decisions. All right. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Jane.
David Hall [00:02:26]:
Jane, it’s so good to have you on today.
Jane Gachucha [00:02:28]:
Thank you, David, so much for having me. I’m excited to be here and grateful for the space you’ve created for this conversation.
David Hall [00:02:37]:
Yeah. You post some great content on X and that’s how we connected and we’re getting, I’m excited to get into the work that you’re doing with Introvert Empowered. But first, tell us a little bit about you and how you got to the work that you’re doing.
Jane Gachucha [00:02:51]:
So my journey started in Kenya where I was born and in my family, there was different career paths that we could take. And mostly this was surrounded around 3 of them. We could either choose to be a doctor, engineer, or an accountant. And that’s how I ended up in accounting. After graduating college, I worked in audit for 20 years in CPA firms, including private companies. I really, really love the work. I enjoy audit. And also, most importantly, is the interactions that I had with my client.
Jane Gachucha [00:03:35]:
Mostly it was one-on-one interactions. Those really energized me. And also they did help me understand my client better. We had deep conversations and I was able to learn how the businesses worked.
David Hall [00:03:51]:
Awesome.
Jane Gachucha [00:03:51]:
What shifted everything for me was when I worked at this private organization and I joined a women’s council. We were a group of 10 women and we were tasked to evaluate different job specifications. And one of the job specifications we looked at was for a mechanic. And one of the requirements listed was the individual had to be able to lift 200 pounds. So we looked at it. Okay. And we said this excludes most, excludes most women. So my team and I decided that this was one of the specifications that would need to be replaced.
David Hall [00:04:45]:
I gotta ask, lift 200 pounds in what kind of way? Most of us can’t lift 200 pounds. Like, that’s That’s crazy. Like, and what are you lifting, you know, without help? That’s, that’s crazy. So yeah, most people, most people can’t do that. Anyway, keep going.
Jane Gachucha [00:05:05]:
Exactly. And when we discuss among the group, we realized for a mechanic, they do have tools to lift the cars or the buses up. So they didn’t really need to lift the 200 pounds. So we presented our revised job specs, and luckily this council had been initiated by the CFO, so our recommendations were accepted. And then when it was approved, we had back after one year, there were only two female mechanics. And within that year, they went up to 6. So 4 additional female mechanics were hired, which is about a 200% increase in, in that field.
David Hall [00:05:58]:
Yeah.
Jane Gachucha [00:05:59]:
That experience helped me to see clearly that the issue wasn’t really the candidates not being able to lift the 200 pounds. It was how the system was great in them. And personally, what I learned from this experience is that I didn’t need to be loud or networking constantly to have an impact.
David Hall [00:06:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. We’re definitely going to get into more of that today. So Jane, when did you figure out that you were an introvert and did you have to learn to embrace it?
Jane Gachucha [00:06:37]:
My initial Realization of introversion was in college. One of the professors asked us to take the Myers-Briggs scoring system, and I came out as an INFJ. And at that time, I didn’t realize what it meant. So I continued to work in a very high-paced environment, which is in public accounting. And then I came across Quiet, the book written by Susan Cain. And that’s when I realized, and I had the language, I got the language to know that I was— the language helped me understand there wasn’t anything wrong with me. I was simply hired for depth rather than noise. So that was an eye-opening.
David Hall [00:07:33]:
Yeah, that’s a great book. I recommend it myself. A lot of my guests have brought it up. What drew— how’d you find it?
Jane Gachucha [00:07:43]:
The book was recommended by a colleague of mine. So that’s how I found it. And after reading this book, it helped me understand and actually shape the work that I’m doing now. Which is helping organizations see and recognize reflective strength, which it’s another way of saying introversion, and find their strengths in their own systems within the organizations.
David Hall [00:08:14]:
Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about that. So it’s called reflective strength.
Jane Gachucha [00:08:19]:
Yeah, I call it reflective strength because As an introvert, we do a lot of deep thinking, strategic analysis. So that’s something that I help organizations look at their systems. As I mentioned in the job specification that we had to review, most of the time it seemed like it was the candidates not being able to pass the test. However, when we were reviewing the specifications, we found out that it was actually the system that had an old testing that didn’t really work for most employees that were applying for that position.
David Hall [00:09:06]:
Yeah, that’s great. And so I’ll say that, you know, nobody’s exactly alike. No introvert is exactly alike, but. I like that you use the word reflective because I do think that’s something that we all share. All introverts are able to be reflective and, you know, use their great gifts of thinking. So I like that.
Jane Gachucha [00:09:27]:
Thank you.
David Hall [00:09:28]:
What’s a strength that you have, Jane, because you’re an introvert?
Jane Gachucha [00:09:31]:
You know, David, after I did the assessment with Myers-Briggs, I did another assessment 2 years ago, hoping it will come out differently.
David Hall [00:09:42]:
Okay.
Jane Gachucha [00:09:45]:
And it confirmed, yes, I was an introvert and I got the same 4 letters, INFJ, and my strengths are in advocacy. So I advocate through systems thinking. I see gaps where other people miss, for example, especially how systems are designed and what they reward. In, in my earlier example, the person, the person or the candidate is, wasn’t, it wasn’t them not being able to fulfill the job requirements. It’s the system’s capability of measuring. How the system was measuring them was what was the disconnect. So the work I do focuses on helping organizations see whether their evaluation systems are unintentionally overlooking strong contributors. Who are, for example, when I say strong contributors, I mean deep thinkers who add value in quiet ways.
Jane Gachucha [00:10:55]:
Because as you know, with introverts, we think deeply and work strategically. So I help organizations see that. And also what I, what my business is doing is not, we’re not really asking organizations to accommodate introverts. We’re asking organizations and leadership to measure, measure accurately, accurately, because when systems are aligned, those introverted strengths become visible. Without asking the person to change who they are.
David Hall [00:11:35]:
That’s amazing, because when we are our authentic selves— and you know, you’re talking about your Myers-Briggs INFJ. I’m very similar, I’m an INTJ. And I could just hear your strengths in there as you were speaking. You know, I’m definitely a very analytical person. I think you are too, but with the F, you’re definitely more in touch with the feelings of others and what’s going on in your environment. And so those are, those are some great gifts. I’m just curious. So one thing I hear from Susan Cain’s book is she talks a lot about the extrovert ideal.
David Hall [00:12:11]:
It sounds like that might be some of what you’re battling. Is that accurate?
Jane Gachucha [00:12:16]:
Yes. Yes.
David Hall [00:12:18]:
Okay. And really, I mean, we’re not going to, we’re not going to change that we’re an introvert. Like, it’s funny. I kind of laughed when you said you took it again, because you’re not the first person that’s told me that. But our personalities are very stable over our lifetimes and they don’t, they’re not going to change a lot, but we can change. But the trick to it is actually knowing your personality and that’s where you can make leaps and bounds types of changes and you can really exceed, but you’re always going to be an introvert at the core or an extrovert at the core.
Jane Gachucha [00:12:50]:
Yeah, exactly. And, and thank you for sharing that because My reasoning behind retaking it was more of a confirmation as to getting in this work. Is this really where my purpose is? And it, it did confirm it. Advocacy is something that I do naturally. For a long time, I didn’t know what to call it. So now I have. The language to properly articulate it.
David Hall [00:13:24]:
Yeah. And again, back to Susan Cain and others, a lot of that work is really giving us language, you know, here’s, here’s what introversion really is. Here’s what it’s not. Here’s what I need as an introvert, you know, and being able to have the language to articulate your needs. And also, of course, even bigger, I think, is strengths, articulate your strengths. That’s, uh, that’s amazing.
Jane Gachucha [00:13:51]:
Thank you.
David Hall [00:13:52]:
So we also bust myths on this show. Is there an introvert myth you want to bust? You might have already busted some.
Jane Gachucha [00:14:00]:
Yes, I do. I actually have the biggest myth about introverts that I would like to bust. It’s about leadership. The myth is introverted people cannot be effective leaders. And research shows the opposite. So I do a lot of my work based on research data. So I have research that says, Tao’s 2024 research shows that introverted employees often demonstrate strong productivity but tend to receive lower performance ratings. And this is because when evaluation systems prioritize visibility over value, that’s when they overlook introverted employees.
David Hall [00:15:00]:
Yes, absolutely. And like I said earlier, you, you have Introvert Empowered and, you know, I, you post regularly on on X. What made you start that?
Jane Gachucha [00:15:11]:
What made me start posting on X? So that leads me to my story behind Introvert Empowered. So for a long time in my career, I thought something was wrong with me because I’ve worked mostly in public companies and the culture has always been be visible, be outspoken. We want to see you speak up more. And I would struggle with this idea of why can’t my work speak for itself? I don’t have to be loud or always visible. So one thing I, I realized is that I really loved analytical work. I love auditing systems. Finding gaps and solving complex problems. One thing that I didn’t enjoy at all was the networking.
Jane Gachucha [00:16:11]:
We had to do constant networking and that just drained me. So for years, I assumed something was wrong with me because I wasn’t fitting the mold. And then just reading Susan Cain’s book really helped me realize that there was nothing wrong with me, and I was able to understand and start seeing the pattern where when I looked everywhere, I saw organizations would often describe people or an employee as brilliant, and then they would rate them as too quiet for leadership. So if there was a role for leadership coming, If you are too quiet, that will not be presented to you. So to me, when I started looking at this closely, it sounded like a measurement error, the same kind of error that I find when I’m performing financial audits. This is when I decided it’s not a people’s issue or employee issue, but it was the system, the system that was grading employees. And that’s how Introverts Empowered was born.
David Hall [00:17:33]:
So tell us more about that. Can you give us an example of what’s wrong with the system and how it could be better?
Jane Gachucha [00:17:39]:
Okay. So in my work currently as a certified fraud examiner, I use forensic audit lens to look at financial statements. So the statement could be saying you’re making a profit, but when we go deeper and look into the transactions, the transactions tell us a different story. I use the same audit lens to look at talent systems. So I identify what I call post-assessment measurement drift, which is a framework I developed to describe the gap between what assessments predict and what evaluation systems actually reward. So the post-assessment measurement drift is when assessments identify someone as thoughtful, analytical, and a strong problem solver, but when it comes to review time or performance evaluation time, they are rated lower. And this is because they are not visible. The people who are more visible are the ones who get—
David Hall [00:18:57]:
Yeah. So how do we fix that?
Jane Gachucha [00:19:00]:
So the way we can fix it is by not changing introverts and looking at the systems. So we have to look at the employees’ work in terms of how they’re working, their productivity level, and not just necessarily if they are participating or they’re being vocal in meetings. So we have to look at value more than visibility. So we have to prioritize value over visibility. And the work that I’m doing is not asking introverts to change who they are. I’m asking organizations to fix their systems so that when they measure in terms of performance, hiring, or promotion, the measurement is accurate for reflective strengths, and they can become more visible.
David Hall [00:20:04]:
So I know that you write about this on X, that really companies are, are losing because they’re rating employees incorrectly. You know, how, how does that cause employees to, to lose profit if they’re not rating their employees correctly?
Jane Gachucha [00:20:28]:
In financial audits. So when it means finding losses in a gap between what the report shows and what the transactions actually show. In talent systems, what we are asking organizations to do is to find where capable people disappear, and that, by that I mean leaving the organization. So we want them to identify what their evaluation criteria is looking at, and not only just visibility. We have to look at also contribution and also what the person’s abilities are in terms of the work that they are doing, not just by being seen. And that’s why I have my movement, which is called Audit the System. And not the person.
David Hall [00:21:23]:
Yeah. I, I knew two friends and one was quieter, you know, one was likely an introvert, the other extrovert. The, let’s just say she was an extrovert. She was more likely to get the job, but the other friend was such a good employee to have, you know, that she really excelled because of the work that she did, but just on the outside. The other one was likely to get more job offers than the quieter one, so to speak. And that’s happening too much in our workplaces where we don’t understand the gifts of introversion and the great power, the analytical abilities, the way to come up with such innovative solutions and creative solutions. And I’m really happy that you’re, that’s something that you’re very passionate about and you’re working on.
Jane Gachucha [00:22:19]:
I am because based on my own experience where if you’re, if you, if you go to an interview, the interviewer rates the person that’s more visible, can speak up more over an introvert. This is something that I experienced in my own interview process where I was told by the interviewer after, after I got hired, luckily I got the position. And 6 months later, one of the partners came up to me and said, I didn’t pick you. I didn’t select you because you came up as quiet, shy, and I was more worried about you getting having a difficult time when you go out to clients and you have to deal with CFOs, owners of businesses, and some of them are really tough. And I said, that wasn’t an issue. And he said, yes, because I’ve heard a lot of my clients always ask for you as an auditor. And you, you made me realize that We cannot just judge a person by speaking to them and by looking. We really have to find another way of evaluating people, which was nice.
Jane Gachucha [00:23:50]:
I did appreciate that they were able to reflect and let me know why they made the decision that they did. And that’s why I feel so strongly about the work I’m doing because I know it just doesn’t happen to a few people. This happens a lot.
David Hall [00:24:11]:
Yeah. And so I have two thoughts about that. We definitely need to improve our systems and think about, are we really finding the best candidate? Are we really measuring correctly? And then of course, this show is just making introverts stronger, you know, making them better. At the interview process, making them more at ease and able to articulate who they are and their strengths they bring. So it’s both things. Our system in a lot of areas needs a lot of work, but the introverts themselves, and that’s why I do this show, is we can get stronger by understanding who we are and what we need and, and the way we prepare and the way we show up, but we can really do much better. So both, both things for sure.
Jane Gachucha [00:24:59]:
Yes, that’s, that’s a great point. And the work you’re doing, David, is really helping a lot of introverts out there.
David Hall [00:25:07]:
Thank you. And so you say the disconnect is structural, structural, not personal. What do you mean by that?
Jane Gachucha [00:25:14]:
What I mean by that is how introvert employees are being assessed or evaluated. So it’s not really because you’re an introvert, or it could apply to extroverted employees, some of them. It’s the structural means, the system, the system that organizations are using for hiring, for promotion, and even for assessment. Most hiring systems, you go into an interview, which is usually one-on-one. And some organizations don’t have something in writing where you could do— you could also interview, have some section of the interview where you write something. And I believe that the writing would help a lot of introverts to express themselves. So that’s why I have that as a It’s, it’s, it’s structural. It’s not really a personal problem.
David Hall [00:26:21]:
So you would have a candidate do a writing sample as part of the interview process?
Jane Gachucha [00:26:29]:
Yes. Because some people are better at expressing themselves on paper than at speaking.
David Hall [00:26:38]:
Yes. For introverts, for sure. We, we are deep thinkers. We think before we speak, and sometimes we do better in writing, you know, where we can craft a great email because we can think about it. Also, you know, sometimes people have a set of questions. You can give those in advance if you do have a set of— not everybody uses a set of questions prepared, but you could give those in advance and let the introvert think about it, you know. So there’s, there’s so many things we could do to better find the best candidates.
Jane Gachucha [00:27:15]:
Yes.
David Hall [00:27:16]:
What advice do you have? You know, you’re talking about, you know, measuring value instead of how visible somebody is. What advice do you have for, for organizations to start building these kinds of systems that are gonna recognize value over visibility?
Jane Gachucha [00:27:32]:
First, for leaders who are curious about whether their evaluation systems are truly aligned with what they’re assessing, measurements predict, I’ve created a set of diagnostic tools called the Measurement Reality Cards. And these cards are designed to show where systems may be rewarding visibility over value and to help what matters. So with these cards, it’s a set of 3 questions per card, and it just asks In terms of like hiring, what are you looking for? Are you looking for someone that’s more vocal, someone that’s able to articulate, flow, flow, flow well during the interview process? So things like that. And then you rate yourself. And then if you have a score of 1 under 3, 1 out of 3, then you will need to reevaluate your system. So it’s very interactive.
David Hall [00:28:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. So where do people get those cards?
Jane Gachucha [00:28:47]:
I have a link on my Twitter profile. So if you go on my Twitter profile, which is @introempowered, you’ll be able to see the link on there.
David Hall [00:29:03]:
Very cool. So the myth that you busted was that, you know, of course introvert, we, we hear introverts can’t be leaders, but of course they can. We both know introverts can be amazing leaders. What advice do you have for the introverted leader or somebody that wants to get into leadership?
Jane Gachucha [00:29:20]:
Okay. First, I would start by saying being an introvert is already an authentic advantage. So for the introverts, they are listening, just know by being an introvert, you already have an advantage. And the other thing I would say, introverts bring strengths to leadership that organizations need. One of them is deep thinking, thoughtful decision-making, and strong judgment. And then As an introvert, if you’re told you need to speak up more, I encourage you to pause and ask, does this evaluation system capture strategic contribution, or does the evaluation only measure vocal frequency? So with that said, it will help you be able to understand what is being measured, and you can take, you can make the right decision in terms of, is this somewhere where they value contribution as an introvert? And, uh, in terms of leadership, it’s not about being the loudest person in the room. It’s mostly about clarity, judgment, and creating space for everyone to actually Excel.
David Hall [00:30:50]:
Yeah. I love that. And so many introverts, you know, even though we need to fix the systems, like I was saying earlier with the job interview, many introverts do need to be more visible, you know, do need to speak up more and they can learn how to do that. You know, what have you learned about being more visible?
Jane Gachucha [00:31:12]:
In terms of visibility. What I’ve learned, it does help people understand you as an individual. Also, as an introvert, you have to be able to understand what are your strengths so that when you’re being asked to be visible, for some of us, we may feel you’re being asked to be more extroverted. However, If you look at your, if you look at your personality and your strengths, then you’ll find the benefits of, you can be visible in a different, in a different space. For example, with, with me, I usually prefer small groups interaction. So if a project is for 2 or 4 people, I’m comfortable with that. I’m comfortable with sharing. Compared to others who visibility for them is a room full of 30 or more than 30+ people.
Jane Gachucha [00:32:19]:
So you just have to find a balance of what, where you’re comfortable being visible.
David Hall [00:32:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. And you talked earlier about one-on-one. You just talked about small groups. A lot of it, a myth I’ll bust is we like people. I’m not an introvert. I like people is what I hear. So often.
David Hall [00:32:39]:
And I’m like, yeah, I like people too. And I am an introvert, you know, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s just a crazy, it’s just a crazy myth. But so we often thrive with people, but in smaller groups or one-on-one, and we do need to learn to speak up. We do need to have our voices heard, but something I’ve figured out, Jane, is I used to be quiet and shy. And lack confidence. I’ve overcome all that. I’m very confident. I speak up.
David Hall [00:33:12]:
But what I realized is, you know, just talking about the extroverted personality, I’m never going to say as many words as an extroverted colleague. I’m just not. I’m going to say what I think is most important, but just the extroverted person is usually sharing most everything. And it’s, that’s just not going to, that’s not in our natures and it’s fine. We do need to speak up and say those things that we need to say though. And if anybody’s struggling with that, they can learn to be better. But I love how, you know, we do need to fix the systems and how we are evaluating employees and making sure we’re measuring what we should be measuring.
Jane Gachucha [00:33:52]:
Exactly. Yes. That’s a good, that’s a good way to express it.
David Hall [00:33:58]:
Yeah. Jane, this has been a wonderful conversation. Is there anything else you want to add today?
Jane Gachucha [00:34:03]:
Yes, I would like to add for introverts that are listening, your way of thinking, listening, and contributing is not a weakness. That is your authentic strength and often your authentic advantage. So be proud of it. And let it guide you. And for leaders who are curious about whether their evaluation systems are truly aligned with what the assessments predict, I have created a set of diagnostic cards, which are the Measurement Reality Cards, and those can be found on my profile on X. And then the, the best place to connect with me will be on Twitter @IntroEmpowered, where I share research-based insights. And then I also want to mention I recently wrote an article for Talent Culture. And the article is about evaluation alignment gap related to training.
Jane Gachucha [00:35:17]:
And that’s something you can also find on my profile on Twitter. And currently I work with organizations from Fortune 500 companies to small businesses, helping them move from initiatives to infrastructure.
David Hall [00:35:39]:
That was amazing.
Jane Gachucha [00:35:41]:
And thank you, David, so much. This has been a wonderful conversation, and I’m grateful for the work that you’re doing.
David Hall [00:35:49]:
Thank you, Jane.
Jane Gachucha [00:35:50]:
Agreed.
David Hall [00:35:51]:
It’s very, very great conversation today.
Jane Gachucha [00:35:54]:
Thank you.
David Hall [00:35:55]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you’re interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free Typefinder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report including the 4-letter Myers-Briggs code. I’ll add a link in the show notes. And I’d love to connect with you. Reach out at [email protected] or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media for Quiet and Strong and much more.
David Hall [00:36:31]:
Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.
David Hall, M.Ed. is a speaker, author, and host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, where he interviews thought leaders, creatives, and professionals who help introverts thrive. With over 25 years in higher education, David has led workshops, trainings, and presentations on productivity, personality, and introversion. His mission is to help introverts honor their needs, understand their strengths, and succeed on their own terms. He is the author of Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts and a passionate advocate for creating work environments where introverts can do their best work.
