Ep 294 – Unleashing Introversion with guest Jessie Zaylia

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Show Notes

Have you ever wondered how embracing your introverted strengths could become your biggest career superpower? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall welcomes Jessie Zaylia—attorney, professor, tech founder, standup comedian, and author of Introversion Unleashed—for an energizing conversation about unleashing the full potential of introversion.

You’ll learn how introverts can navigate and thrive in traditionally extroverted spaces, turn listening and preparation into key advantages, and make lasting professional connections without sacrificing authenticity. Jessie Zaylia tackles common myths about introverts, shares actionable communication and networking strategies (including her dogs-and-chocolate method), and explains why giving yourself permission to recharge is key to powerful leadership.

Listen in for real-world advice, myth-busting inspiration, and encouragement for anyone who wants to build a big career without losing themselves in the process. Get ready to unleash your introversion—and be strong.

Embracing Introversion: Unleashing Strengths and Busting Myths with Jessie Zylia

As the host of the Quiet and Strong podcast, I’ve had the privilege of meeting incredible introverts who not only embrace their unique qualities but leverage them to build powerful careers. In episode 294, I was joined by Jessie Zylia—a tech founder, attorney, professor, standup comedian, and author of Introversion Unleashed: Build a Big Career Without Losing Yourself in the Process. Our conversation offered both candid insights and practical advice for introverts seeking career success and self-acceptance. Here’s what I learned from this dynamic episode.

Introversion: A Powerful Foundation for Success

Introversion isn’t something holding us back—it’s a core part of who we are, and if we lean into it, it can be a massive superpower. Jessie kicked off the conversation by highlighting that our innate personality traits don’t need to be fixed; rather, they are foundational tools, the building blocks for the career and life we want. She’s living proof: not only has she thrived in stereotypically extroverted environments (like the courtroom and comedy stage), but she credits her introverted strengths, such as listening and keen observation, for much of her success.

When I Realized I Was an Introvert

I opened up about my own journey of discovering my introversion. For years, I thought something might be “wrong” with me because I wasn’t as comfortable in social situations or quick to speak as others around me. Jessie shared that she didn’t realize she was an introvert until her 30s. Despite her energetic, sometimes even “life of the party” persona in comfortable circles, personality tests always came back an “I” for introvert. It eventually made sense: the need for silence and recharging after high-energy activities, like court trials, are clear markers of introversion.

Recognizing and Celebrating Introverted Strengths

One of the key themes in our discussion was how introverted strengths are often undervalued. Jessie explained how traits like active listening, thinking before responding, and noticing what’s unsaid—not just what’s said—make introverts influential as leaders, founders, and professionals. She gave insight into how these skills come into play in her roles as both an attorney and tech founder, whether in a courtroom deposition or a venture capital pitch.

Busting the Biggest Myths About Introverts

Jessie and I share a similar frustration about the persistent myths surrounding introverts, especially in business and leadership: we are less capable, less suited to entrepreneurship, or can’t thrive in roles like CEO or founder. Social media and corporate culture often perpetuate the idea that introverts must “be more extroverted” to succeed. Jessie likened that advice to telling a short person to “just be taller.” It’s not only ignorant advice—it’s unhelpful and potentially harmful.

We both agreed that telling introverts to act like extroverts is draining and inauthentic. My own best work has always come when tapping into my true self, and Jessie’s career is a testament to excelling by working with, not against, her natural tendencies.

Yes, Introverts Can Lead—and Perform!

A particularly resonant part of the episode was our conversation around introversion and leadership. We debunked the idea that introverts can’t be great leaders or performers. In fact, many renowned comedians are introverts who draw on a rich inner world and sharp observational skills. Jessie pointed out how, after a performance or a trial, she (and I!) need time to recover—a classic introvert need. We also emphasized the importance of preparation for introverts: our best performances, speeches, or presentations come when we can plan ahead and manage our energy.

How Successful Introverts Network and Build Relationships

Networking events can be daunting for introverts. Jessie shared unique, actionable advice on how to network authentically—what she calls her “dogs and chocolate method.” Rather than force canned conversations about business, she steered networking chats toward genuine topics she loves (like dogs or dark chocolate). This passion sparks real connections and makes her memorable—not because she tried to impress with legalese or forced small talk, but because she was authentic and enthusiastic about relatable topics.

Jessie also highlighted advice from introverts she interviewed for her book. Michelle Rhee, for example, recommends focusing on building meaningful relationships with just two or three people outside your immediate circle, rather than trying to collect dozens of business cards. Another guest, Katie Dunn, practices giving herself permission to leave events once she’s met her goals for being there—a great energy-management tactic for any introvert.

Developing Communication Skills as an Introvert

For introverts who struggle with small talk or approaching new people, Jessie suggested practicing small, actionable steps. Compliment something genuine about someone’s attire, or take literal baby steps into a group conversation. When it comes time to end a conversation, be polite, thank the person, and move on without guilt. Preparation and authenticity are key—don’t pretend to be someone you’re not for the sake of fitting in.

The Importance of Rest and Recovery

Both Jessie and I emphasized that rest is part of the work for introverts. High-energy, high-stimulation events are draining, and it’s crucial to plan for recuperation. Jessie shared a story about a “recovery room” at a former workplace—a dark room with a couch to retreat and recharge. Whether it’s time alone after networking or skipping the afterparty cruise, allowing yourself downtime is vital for maintaining performance and well-being.

Leading as an Introvert: Being Willing to Step Out Front

Leadership, Jessie concluded, isn’t off-limits to introverts. She points out wisdom from Keely Belton—if you want to lead, you have to be in front. That doesn’t mean you need to become someone else; it means taking small, consistent steps out of your comfort zone. Leadership and big impact are achievable for introverts, not as an exception but as the rule, when you embrace your natural talents.

Key Takeaways

• Embracing introversion is a strength; introverts can build powerful careers by leaning into their natural abilities instead of trying to be extroverted 00:00, 15:39.
• Listening, observing, and thoughtful preparation are superpowers that help introverts excel as attorneys, leaders, founders, and performers 06:13, 14:01.
• Networking doesn’t have to be about quantity—building a few deep, meaningful relationships is often more beneficial for introverts 20:32.
• Authenticity and self-care are vital; recovery time is essential after draining activities like networking or public speaking 24:01, 14:05.
• Introverts can be outstanding leaders, comedians, and performers; success isn’t reserved for extroverts, and the path to achievement may simply look different 08:33, 11:29, 13:09.

Make Changes Now

Immediate Actions for Introverts After This Episode

1. Embrace Your Authentic Introversion
   • Reflect on the specific tools and strengths unique to you as an introvert, such as deep listening and careful observation. Use these traits confidently rather than trying to “be more extroverted.” 00:17 16:12
2. Prepare for Social and Networking Events
   • Before your next social or networking event, set a clear, manageable goal—like having one genuine conversation or making a real connection with just 2–3 people. Give yourself permission in advance to leave once your objective is complete. 21:35 22:23
3. Leverage Your Passions for Connection
   • Identify a couple of topics you’re truly passionate about (for example, art, travel, or a favorite hobby) and be ready to use them in conversations as genuine points of connection with new people, rather than defaulting to small talk. 32:25
4. Practice Small Communication Skills
   • Choose two small conversational skills—like complimenting a genuine item someone’s wearing or joining a group with a bit of humor—and practice them at your next event. Focus on making these practices permanent through repetition. 35:28 36:10
5. Schedule and Honor Recovery Time
   • Build in recovery and solo time after draining activities or events. Recognize that rest is a vital part of your productivity and leadership—plan time for yourself as a non-negotiable part of your calendar. 14:15 23:55

By taking these steps, you can start to unleash your introvert superpowers and build a strong, authentic presence in your personal and professional life.

Amplifying Introverted Voices

As I wrapped up my conversation with Jessie, I felt even more passionate about the mission of Quiet and Strong: to amplify and celebrate introverted strengths and needs. Whether you’re looking to build a big career or simply become more confident in your everyday life, the path for introverts may look different—but it’s valid, powerful, and successful in its own right.

If you want more stories like Jessie’s, or are looking for strategies tailored to introverts, I encourage you to check out our other episodes, connect with me, or explore the resources on QuietandStrong.com. And if you’re interested in learning more about Jessie and her book, visit her website or search Introversion Unleashed on Amazon.

Remember, get to know your introverted strengths and needs—and be strong.

Contacts and Links

Jessie Zaylia is an introvert, an attorney, professor, tech founder, and author of Introversion Unleashed. Through edgy humor and hard-earned insight, she helps ambitious introverts build powerful careers without losing themselves in the process.

Connect with Jessie on LinkedIn

Jessie’s New Book: Introversion Unleashed: Build a Big Career Without Losing Yourself in the Process

– – –

Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster

quietandstrong.com
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david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Timestamped Overview

00:00 In episode 294 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, host David Hall discusses embracing introversion as a strength with guest Jesse Zylia, an introvert who is an attorney, professor, tech founder, and author of Introversion Unleashed.

03:20 The speaker, initially uncertain of being an introvert or extrovert, consistently results as an introvert in Myers-Briggs tests despite their energetic persona in social settings.

07:10 The author expresses frustration over LinkedIn posts claiming introverts lack the capability to be tech founders, which motivated them to write a book challenging these myths.

12:20 The speaker recounts a humorous performance by a woman who called herself the “gonorrhea goddess,” using big gestures on stage, and later praised her for being hilarious.

15:39 The section discusses how embracing introversion can be a powerful advantage in one’s career, suggesting that introverts possess innate skills, such as the ability to pause and reflect, which can be beneficial for extroverts to learn.

19:57 The section discusses the insights shared by introverts, highlighting Michelle Rhee’s advice on career-building through developing deep relationships with a few individuals just outside one’s immediate circle, rather than focusing on networking with many people.

21:01 Building meaningful and manageable relationships with 2 or 3 people outside your immediate circle is more beneficial and impactful than having superficial connections with many, as it fosters genuine mutual benefits.

24:58 While interning at the California Department of Justice during law school, the author appreciated a unique feature—a small dark room with a couch for private, short recovery breaks.

29:12 The author describes their inner dread and sense of desperation attending networking events in law school, feeling compelled to go despite not wanting to interact with others.

31:23 The speaker expresses a strong passion for dogs and dark chocolate, highlighting their expertise and ability to provide advice on the best chocolatiers, while recognizing the shared interest many people have in these subjects.

36:10 The text discusses starting conversations at networking events by genuinely complimenting or showing interest in something about a person’s ensemble, asking questions about it, and gradually stepping into group conversations.

39:22 The discussion centers on setting realistic goals for meeting people at events, such as having genuine conversations with a few individuals rather than trying to meet everyone, and criticizes the inefficacy and unenjoyable nature of using punch cards at conferences.

41:57 The section discusses how introverts who want to lead can achieve this by gradually developing leadership skills through small steps, referencing the concept of “baby steps” from the movie What About Bob?.

Podcast Transcript

Jessie Zaylia [00:00:00]:
Introversion is a very powerful thing. And if you lean into it, you can take the various parts of your personality and they can be massive superpowers. You can have much more going on for you that will set you up for the successful career that you want. So I like the idea of Thinking about who we are, the innate tools that we tend to have, leaning hard into them, and that those things can actually be the, the very building blocks that you need to do the thing that you wanna do so that you are not impeded. So go ahead and unleash all of it so that you can build what you want the way that you want to.

David Hall [00:00:57]:
Hello and welcome to episode 294 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall, and the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts, along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we will air each episode on a Monday, Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Jesse Zylia is an introvert, an attorney, professor, tech founder, and author of Introversion Unleashed.

David Hall [00:01:46]:
Through edgy humor, and hard-hitting insight, she helps ambitious introverts build powerful careers without losing themselves in the process. All right. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Jessie. Jessie, it’s so good to have you on today.

Jessie Zaylia [00:02:02]:
It is great to be here. I’m thrilled. So thank you for having me.

David Hall [00:02:06]:
Yeah. And you just released a book, Introversion Unleashed. We’re going to get into that. Yeah. Very good book. And then course first, just tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Jessie Zaylia [00:02:16]:
Well, I am an introvert who does weird things. So things that are not stereotypically assigned to introverts. I have been on stage for a number of things, including fitness competitions. So in what I describe in the book as a micro bikini and glitter heels, I have done standup comedy. I am an attorney. I’ve been an attorney for 15 years. There are plenty of introverts who are attorneys, but very few of them have done standup comedy. I also, I’m a tech founder.

Jessie Zaylia [00:02:55]:
I have 2 tech companies. I’m a professor of political science at a local community college. And hopefully that’s it.

David Hall [00:03:04]:
Okay. Well, that’s quite a bit. That’s exciting. I don’t know if you said author, but now author.

Jessie Zaylia [00:03:11]:
Now author. That’s right.

David Hall [00:03:14]:
So of course you’re on the Quiet and Strong podcast. When did you figure out that you were an introvert?

Jessie Zaylia [00:03:20]:
That’s a really good question. I think I wondered in my 30s. I really, you know, I did, I did not think I was an introvert before that. I didn’t really think I was an extrovert either, either. And I didn’t have a full appreciation of the fact that people tend to be one or the other. But because I tend to be very, very edgy and sarcastic, and when I’m comfortable around people, I can— I— some people have described me as the life of the party, so I can get a little bit— I don’t know if wild’s the right word, but anyhow, energetic. And so I never thought that I would ever fit into introversion, but I have taken over the course of my life these Myers-Briggs tests, plenty of them. And every single solitary time without fail, I got the I for every single solitary time.

Jessie Zaylia [00:04:19]:
And I thought, well, that’s interesting. And it kind of dismissed it. I didn’t think I’m going to dismiss it because I’m really an extrovert and about that. I just thought, well, I’m not going to remember any of these things about Myers-Briggs anyhow. So I sort of put it to the back burner. But after a while, it started to kind of eat at me because being an attorney and taking trials and needing absolute silence, absolute— I didn’t want to talk to anybody for a long time after trial, trying to understand how that worked. forced me to dig in a little bit more deeply. So that’s kind of how I figured it out.

David Hall [00:04:59]:
Okay. And introverts can be the life of the party sometimes. That’s right.

Jessie Zaylia [00:05:03]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, especially when we’re comfortable with people.

David Hall [00:05:08]:
Oh yeah, that does make a difference. And what have you learned about your strengths as an introvert?

Jessie Zaylia [00:05:15]:
Oh, this is really incredible. I, I I never thought about it as being a strength really until I started doing these interviews for my book, interviewing 7 very successful introverts who have worked at all kinds of companies that we would all recognize. And they, you know, they’re forces to be reckoned with. And so when I interviewed them and seeing their career path, And how they used introversion as a strength, I thought, wow, this helps. This helps me resonate with my own self. So I think that listening is extremely important. It really helps as an attorney for sure, especially you taking a deposition. And instead of just moving on to the next question, because it’s the next question you have prepared, you’re listening to what’s being said.

Jessie Zaylia [00:06:13]:
You’re listening to what’s missing, and you’re able to Think on your feet because of it. Now, that helps at a live trial as well, and it helps me as a tech founder when you’re talking to investors, or if you’re talking to fellow founders who might need your help, because I’m a little bit farther along than some of them, or if I need other people’s help. It really, really helps you figure out what’s missing and what sort of needs to be teased out in order to sort of get more directly to the heart of the matter.

David Hall [00:06:50]:
Yeah. Awesome. And definitely, um, listening and observing can be key strengths for introverts.

Jessie Zaylia [00:07:00]:
Yeah, absolutely.

David Hall [00:07:02]:
And then, you know, we talk about strengths and needs and we also bust myths. Is there a myth we about introverts that you want to bust today?

Jessie Zaylia [00:07:10]:
Oh, yes. Yes, there are some myths I want to bust wide open. And there are things that really, quite frankly, just piss me off. So, and it was kind of the impetus for me even writing the book, I was just mad. So going on LinkedIn, and seeing these, how I would describe them as like, extrovert tech bros, these bros with all of these opinions. And I’ve seen it thrown around all over LinkedIn, how introverts are not this or not that, we are not capable of, and then you just list a whole bunch of stuff. And so what you see on these posts is introverts don’t have the chops. To be a tech founder or to be any founder.

Jessie Zaylia [00:08:04]:
They don’t have what it takes. They can’t. I’ve also seen, because not all founders are CEOs and a lot of founders should not be CEOs, frankly, but I’ve also seen introverts cannot be CEOs unless they want to make a point about some of the multi-billion dollar companies that we all know and how their CEOs were introverts or their co-founders were introverts. Steve Wozniak is definitely known as being a huge introvert. Steve Jobs was an introvert. You know, Bill Gates was an introvert, or is an introvert. I’m not trying to suggest that he’s not around.

David Hall [00:08:40]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessie Zaylia [00:08:42]:
But, you know, when people want to make a big point about a big company, then suddenly they remember. But other than that, they’re very opinionated, and the opinion that goes along with these posts that are full of ignorance and vitriol is that introverts, if they want to have even a shot at being successful, then they need to learn how to be more extroverted. I see that language all the time, and it really— I saw it enough times where it finally pissed me off enough to do something about it and to, to write a book about it. So there you have it.

David Hall [00:09:19]:
Oh, I love that because that’s what this show’s all about. introverts can do whatever. It’s just the path might look different. You know, the path to success might look different. And so, yeah, I think I’ve heard you mention that, that that’s not good advice is to try to be more extroverted. Right.

Jessie Zaylia [00:09:42]:
I feel like people don’t even know what that means. They have no idea what that means. It’s really weird. It’s like telling a short person, you know, you should just like be taller.

David Hall [00:09:53]:
Yeah.

Jessie Zaylia [00:09:54]:
It’s like, um, I can’t just be taller. I could maybe grab some different tools to reach what I need to reach, but it’s very, a very ignorant thing to say. And I think that there’s a big difference between this idea of learning to be extroverted, which is just nonsense, And it has to do with our inner computing and also our relationship to energy versus utilizing tools that are available to everyone, extroverts and introverts alike. And so learning a skill or using a tool is very, very different than, oh, just become a totally different person. That doesn’t make any sense and it’s not useful.

David Hall [00:10:38]:
Yeah, I tried that. I tried to be a different person when I was younger.

Jessie Zaylia [00:10:43]:
How’d that work out?

David Hall [00:10:44]:
So a couple things. It’s, you’re not as effective as when you’re being your authentic self and tapping into your strengths. And it’s also so draining. You know, it wipes you out and, and your best is going to come when you are being yourself, being authentic. That’s, that’s where you get the best. And it took me a while to learn that.

Jessie Zaylia [00:11:09]:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it is already exhausting just to really be so judged even for being introverted, let alone trying to mold yourself in every way, shape, and form so that you’re palatable to what everybody else thinks success is supposed to look like.

David Hall [00:11:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. I get mad too when people say, oh, introverts can’t be great leaders or this or that. They even say they can’t be comedians. What do you think about that?

Jessie Zaylia [00:11:40]:
Oh, you know, this is, this is the thing about that. Almost all comedians are.

David Hall [00:11:46]:
I know, almost all.

Jessie Zaylia [00:11:48]:
I mean, when— and some of them are not just introverts, but awkward as all hell. When you go into the green room and you’re talking to your fellow comics, Some of them can’t even string a few sentences together. There was this one gal that I knew, and it’s been a really long time. I cannot remember. I’m terrible with names. I cannot remember her name. She was so funny. I really loved her sets.

Jessie Zaylia [00:12:20]:
And she called herself— I’m just gonna say it. I’m just gonna say it, Dave. And I hope that your listeners will forgive, but she called herself the gonorrhea goddess. It was absolutely hilarious how she— Oh my God. how she set this whole thing up. It was so funny. And she was wild on stage, and she used a lot of, you know, big gestures, and it was so funny. And afterward, I went up to her and I just said, you are absolutely hilarious.

Jessie Zaylia [00:12:49]:
I really loved your stuff. And we were performing at the same venue that night, and she could barely look me in the eye to say thank you. I mean, she— it It just didn’t happen. So it’s extreme. It’s more likely that you’re going to have an introverted comic than an extroverted comic.

David Hall [00:13:09]:
Yeah, for real. And you know, it’s— what did you call it just now? Our inner computer? What did you just call it?

Jessie Zaylia [00:13:18]:
Oh, I don’t know what I just—

David Hall [00:13:21]:
Our inner computing or something.

Jessie Zaylia [00:13:23]:
I’m so stuck on Goderia Goddess.

David Hall [00:13:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. But we, we, we, we’re always, we tune inward. We have great imaginations. So, you know, it does make for good comedians because we see life and how absurd it can be sometimes, you know? And so it’s, that’s funny. And, you know, people say that just about performing, oh, introverts don’t like to perform. I’m like, yes, they do. Just, we might, like you said, after a trial, you need a break.

David Hall [00:13:51]:
After performing, I’m sure you need a break. You know, and also we, we likely are going to prepare ahead of time more than our extroverted friends. We do really good with preparation and we need to manage our energy. Like, you know, planning for a break after. I’m not doing anything after this, Jessie. I’m loving this. I’m enjoying talking to you, but after this, I don’t have plans. I plan to take a break.

Jessie Zaylia [00:14:14]:
That’s right. And to build that in, to build the recuperation time into Your schedule so that rest is part of the work. That’s very important.

David Hall [00:14:26]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Jessie Zaylia [00:14:27]:
I love it.

David Hall [00:14:28]:
So I told you I’m enjoying your book. I’m going to read the whole title here. Introversion Unleashed: Build a Big Career Without Losing Yourself in the Process.

Jessie Zaylia [00:14:38]:
Yeah, that’s right.

David Hall [00:14:40]:
So I think, I think you said what made you write this book, just hearing false things about introversion. I love the title. What does it mean for an introvert to be unleashed?

Jessie Zaylia [00:14:53]:
Oh, so glad you asked. I think that what I really wanted was, well, first of all, I tend to buck convention a bit, and I’m drawn toward looking at different narratives, exposing them, and then challenging them in public. I do that. I’ve done that forever. So when you think of the word unleashed, you certainly do not think about introversion. So I kind of liked it because I thought it was sort of an oxymoron, but it was an oxymoron that can be a— that it’s not a true oxymoron because it can be accomplished. It absolutely can be accomplished. And those 2 things do belong together and can exist together.

Jessie Zaylia [00:15:39]:
But the unleashed part is more like Introversion is a very powerful thing. And if you lean into it, you can take the various parts of your personality and they can be massive superpowers. You can have much more going on for you that will set you up for the successful career that you want over and above your extrovert counterparts. Now, I’m not trying in any way to judge or offend extroverts. I just want to make that extremely, extremely clear. I’m not trying to do that, but I think that we have certain skills that are innate, and these are skills that extroverts could use learning. They could benefit from learning some of our skills, like Letting pauses happen sometimes, letting things just digest a little before you remark or make a response. And I think that that could be a great tool for extroverts.

Jessie Zaylia [00:16:50]:
Those tools just tend to come easier to us. So I like the idea of thinking about who we are, the innate tools that we tend to have, leaning hard into them, and that those things can actually be the, the very building blocks that you need to do the thing that you want to do so that you are not impeded. So go ahead and unleash all of it so that you can build what you want the way that you want to.

David Hall [00:17:21]:
Yeah. And you know, for me, You know, a long time ago, I used to think something was wrong with me. Why can’t I be more at ease like that person I see or speak, you know, comfortably like that person? And I figured it out. It’s like, oh, I think before I speak, like, kind of like you’re describing. And like you’re describing very well, it’s a good thing. You know, give me a little time to think about something and I’m going to put together some brilliant ideas. Sometimes I’ll think of things on the spot, but most of the time my good decisions or my good ideas come with a little bit of time. And to understand that my extroverted friend isn’t operating the same, that’s where I kind of unleashed my introversion, so to speak.

David Hall [00:18:09]:
I love the title.

Jessie Zaylia [00:18:11]:
Thank you so much. I appreciate that. And it’s funny because even when I’ve gone to trial against extroverts, they might be able to speak.

David Hall [00:18:20]:
sooner.

Jessie Zaylia [00:18:21]:
But oftentimes when they’re speaking, it’s pretty empty and it annoys the judge. When, when I speak now, I have had to learn how to think very quickly because if you’re going to make an objection, you have to do that right there on the spot and know your stuff. And that just comes with a lot of practice.

David Hall [00:18:37]:
Right.

Jessie Zaylia [00:18:37]:
But I’m one of the only people that I know where in a deposition I might ask a question I’m sitting there, I’m listening to their answers, and if they’re done answering, I might just sit there. Silence happening for a long time. I’ve been known to sit there for an uncomfortably long time, lean back in my chair. I’ll look up and I’m thinking, I’m really letting these things digest. And it’s not that I haven’t come prepared with a whole bunch of questions, but now they’ve said something. That’s triggering my spidey sense. You know, something is up and I have to really think about it. And I’m not going to rush through my questions if that is an interesting point that they’re making.

Jessie Zaylia [00:19:25]:
And if I can connect the dots in an interesting way while I’m there, I’m gonna do it. But it’s really a skill. And once you learn that these are things that are, that are just great for us, we can be Very, very powerful.

David Hall [00:19:40]:
Yeah, for sure.

Jessie Zaylia [00:19:42]:
Yeah.

David Hall [00:19:42]:
So you already mentioned that you interviewed some highly successful introverts for your book.

Jessie Zaylia [00:19:48]:
Yes.

David Hall [00:19:48]:
What did you learn about their approaches that look different from extroverts, how they approached life and success and leadership?

Jessie Zaylia [00:19:57]:
So many wonderful little tidbits. Each one of these introverts really had some gifts to give, and a lot of it overlapped, but, but quite a bit of it did not. The overlapping parts I thought were very interesting because it helped. It felt very validating to be interviewing these people and thinking, wow, we’re all kind of having the same experience when it comes to these things, but their advice is a little bit different, and that is what is important. So Michelle Rhee, for example, she’s one of the women I interviewed in my book. She says that if you’re going to be building your career, it’s not necessarily about meeting as many people as possible so that you have all of this, you know, this huge string of people that you can contact. She says, get 2 or 3 people, and they need to be just outside of your immediate circle. And then build those relationships.

Jessie Zaylia [00:21:01]:
So 2 or 3 people outside of your immediate circle that you can really have a flourishing relationship that is mutually beneficial and not in the way that you’re DM’d on LinkedIn by some random person who paid for whatever and says, hi, I saw your LinkedIn profile. I’d love to work in a way that’s mutually beneficial, which just means they want to sell you something. It’s fine to sell something, fine, but we’re not going to mutually benefit one another. She says, if you build these relationships, it’s just 2 or 3 people. That’s totally manageable. And it, it’s more meaningful to us. And that will take you much farther than a room full of business cards. And that is advice that you do not hear.

Jessie Zaylia [00:21:47]:
You hear you go to these networking events, you need to pick up as many business cards as possible. She’s saying no. No, let’s think about that a little bit differently. And, and Katie Dunn. Katie Dunn, I just absolutely loved that interview so much because she talked about giving herself permission to leave, which was so like beforehand. It was so interesting. Before she goes to an event, she has an idea of mind of what it is that she wants Or what she needs to accomplish there. And once she does that thing, then she has pre-given herself permission to leave that event if she wants to.

Jessie Zaylia [00:22:33]:
If she doesn’t want to, she’s having a great old time, great, she can stay. But she’s given her permission, herself permission ahead of time to leave. And I love that advice. You do not hear that advice. It’s one of my favorite pieces of advice in the whole book.

David Hall [00:22:50]:
Yeah, that’s awesome. So I had a guest on a few years back and he was from San Diego and, you know, I think he would follow that same advice of giving yourself permission to leave, but he said he would never do the boat cruise, the after-party boat cruise, because once you’re on the boat, you’re on the boat. You can’t leave early.

Jessie Zaylia [00:23:11]:
That’s right. You can’t get off the boat. Oh man. Absolutely. You’re stuck on that thing. And unless there’s a dog, Yeah. Unless there’s a dog I can play with, I don’t want to be there. Yeah.

David Hall [00:23:22]:
Very cool. And what have you learned about leading as being an introvert?

Jessie Zaylia [00:23:32]:
There are a lot of lessons that I’ve learned over the years. And I think that part of it that I honestly, I’m still, I’m still struggling with it. I’ve learned it. And even though I have head knowledge, the application of it could be better, I have to admit. And that is that recovery is part of the work. I struggle with this, not as a concept, but just in the practical nature of reality. So, you know, taking the time to rest enough— sleep is so important. When people say, oh, I’ll sleep when I’m dead.

Jessie Zaylia [00:24:11]:
That’s great. You’ll get there sooner. I mean, that’s, that’s really what the research shows. So, you know, but if I want to go and do good things, I not only want to lead my team, but my goals with my companies are to benefit society or businesses or whatever. And if I want to do those things for other people, Then I need to be well rested. I need that recovery time for myself. And it doesn’t have to be grandiose. I don’t have to go to a saltwater spa and pay $500 to get a, you know, facial and recover afterwards in a steam room.

Jessie Zaylia [00:24:58]:
Like, I don’t have to do that. I can do little things as long as I am Making an effort to consciously make that recovery time. For instance, when I was in law school, I was working for the California Department of Justice for an internship. One thing they had— I’ve never seen any other place have this— when you went outside into the hallway, there was one little tiny room. That was totally dark with a couch in it. There was nothing else in there, and you could go in there, lock the door for like safety and privacy, and you could recover. You could just sit there for 10 minutes and then get back to work. You know, I don’t smoke, so I don’t have smoke breaks.

Jessie Zaylia [00:25:48]:
I’m not judging anyone who smokes, of course, but that, that was great recovery. It was amazing. I need to implement that. More often in my everyday life.

David Hall [00:26:00]:
So have you kind of figured out, you know, what energizes you in your work and what drains you and when you need to plan for those breaks?

Jessie Zaylia [00:26:10]:
I know for sure that networking events drain me. I hate them. I absolutely hate networking events and I get a little tiny negative about it. But I have to do it. There’s no escaping. And so I know those are draining, and I know I do need to plan recovery time. Part of the networking events, like if you go to a convention, is that there are— it does kind of go from meeting to meeting to meeting to dinner to after-party to whatever, and it’s this never-ending string of Stuff. So I probably take a week after that to do extremely low-key activity.

Jessie Zaylia [00:26:59]:
I don’t want to have big meetings at all after a big networking event, especially a big convention. Oh, I just, I need that recovery. Absolutely. And then when it comes to smaller things like, like a trial or a deposition, I say smaller because a trial at least doesn’t last as long as a convention does. So when I have a trial, I know that I will take the rest of the day off. I don’t have lunch. I never eat lunch during a trial. I take the middle of that day to just sit by myself wherever it is that I am, and I don’t talk to anybody during that hour.

Jessie Zaylia [00:27:40]:
And as far as what gives me energy. It’s a good question. I think that really when I’m working with people whom I know one-on-one or in small groups of people I know, or if I know I’m going to— if I’m going to present on stage, that will actually give me a lot of energy. I love it, especially because by the time I’m on stage, I know my stuff. I know the topic really well. I know that I can bring an audience in. And that they will pay attention to me. And usually, even if they’ve been asleep beforehand, they will be a hot audience, meaning they will be raising their hands and asking their questions and interested in what I’m saying.

Jessie Zaylia [00:28:25]:
It’s been like that ever since I was very, very young and first started presenting. So I definitely get energy from that.

David Hall [00:28:31]:
Yeah, I love that. Because like we said, introverts, we do love to perform. I love speaking as well. And, you know, there’s other types of performing that you’ve done and it’s just, it’s just, we just need to be prepared and it could be wonderful, you know?

Jessie Zaylia [00:28:47]:
Preparation is absolutely key. Yes.

David Hall [00:28:49]:
Yeah, for sure. And so do you have other ways that you network? Do you have other advice for introverts on how they could become visible?

Jessie Zaylia [00:29:02]:
Yes, I have my dogs and chocolate method. That’s my favorite, favorite piece of networking advice.

David Hall [00:29:10]:
Okay.

Jessie Zaylia [00:29:12]:
When I was in law school, I would go to these horrifying networking events. And I, I say horrifying not because other people were horrible, but just because that was my inner dread. Oh my God, I have to go to another networking event. And when you’re in law school, you feel very desperate So you don’t feel like going is a choice. You feel like if you don’t go, you’re going to miss an opportunity and you’re, you’re absolutely desperate to meet people to help you find a job or whatever it is that you’re going to do. And that’s not why you network, but that’s your misperception when you are a law school student. So I would go to these events full of law students and experienced attorneys and I didn’t want to talk to these people. I didn’t want to talk to the attorneys.

Jessie Zaylia [00:30:03]:
It’s not because I was intimidated by the fact that they were attorneys, because I was an older law student. And so I didn’t really care if they were attorneys. I appreciated their time coming to these events, right? It’s, it’s, they don’t need another cheese plate and a glass of wine. They don’t need that. So they’re there to be nice, but I didn’t have anything to talk with these people about. I was also a very average law school student. I was not in the top 10% of my class at all. Some of my great friends were, and good for them, and they don’t have to worry about anything.

Jessie Zaylia [00:30:36]:
And me, I was in the very middle of the pack. So I didn’t want to wax legalese with these people. What I would do is I would talk to them about anything, or they would talk to me about anything. Meaning even, oh, so where are you going to law school? I get that question a lot. And I would ask them where they work and all of this. As soon as I could somehow raise the topic of either dogs or chocolate, because you’re eating food, so chocolate could come up. As soon as I could raise either one of those topics naturally, the conversation completely shifted. Suddenly I was really lighting up.

Jessie Zaylia [00:31:23]:
I’m extremely passionate about dogs, any dog. I don’t even care what dog, and especially dark chocolate. I love dark chocolate and I know quite a lot about it, and I’m a real snob about it, which also means I can give great advice about the best chocolatier in the entire country, and I have evidence to support what I’m saying. These 2 topics are 2 things that I categorically am passionate about and knowledgeable about, but they also just so happens to be that they also are topics that other people tend to like. Most people like dogs, not everyone, and it’s okay, but a lot of people like dogs. And when they— if you do find someone who likes a dog, they usually really, really, really like dogs. And a lot of people like chocolate. So if you can have a passion with somebody whom you’ve just met, that’s a real connection.

Jessie Zaylia [00:32:25]:
Passion is real connection. The, so why are you here at the conference? Like, that’s not real connection. It’s an opener. You’re trying to get to know somebody or whatever. Not a problem. But if you can talk about something that you’re actually passionate about, Then it takes you away from this kind of monotonous existence during such exercises, and you can really, really connect. And as an attorney, and as a law student, actually, I got more business cards at these little events than any of my fellow students. And it’s not because I was smarter.

Jessie Zaylia [00:33:05]:
I wasn’t smarter. I was in the very middle of the pack. It’s because I talked about not the function, anything but the reason why we were all there together. And I didn’t try to impress them with my legal prowess as a law student. You don’t have legal prowess as a law student. Even the smartest ones are really stupid. So, like, you know, generally speaking, you’re not going to impress these attorneys who have been doing this for a long time. So instead of trying to impress or trying to prove how smart you are, forget that.

Jessie Zaylia [00:33:34]:
Engage and talk about something you’re truly, truly passionate about that other people can be passionate about. And I tell people, don’t choose dogs and chocolate, because if everybody starts doing that, it’s going to be super, super obvious. But art, a lot of people are passionate about art. Travel, tons of people are passionate about travel. And if you can get really, really into something, they can see your energy and it will be matched. And then you’ll get your business cards that you want to get.

David Hall [00:34:00]:
Yeah, that’s great advice. And of course, yeah, if we all started talking about dogs and chocolate, I think you got that from Jesse. Yeah, I read that book too. But find your thing, you know, find your thing that you can talk about and be ready to share some things. And it’s part of preparation. Think ahead of time, you know, what are some topics that I can talk about for this thing?

Jessie Zaylia [00:34:26]:
Yeah, I love it.

David Hall [00:34:28]:
And, you know, along the same lines, you know, we’re, we’re not always the best at thinking on our feet. So, you know, preparation goes a long way. You also talk in your book about communication skills. How can introverts, if they are lacking in communication skills, how can they develop better communication skills?

Jessie Zaylia [00:34:48]:
There are lots of little tricks that you can use. And you don’t need to use all of them. Pick a couple that resonate with you and practice them. I had a vocal coach years and years ago. It did not help, but I did get a vocal coach and she used to tell me practice makes permanent. She’s like, it doesn’t make perfect, it makes permanent. And that’s really good to know because if you are practicing the wrong thing over and over and over again, Or if you, like me, go to these things and then just want to turn around and retreat over and over again, that is making permanent. You don’t want that.

Jessie Zaylia [00:35:28]:
So take a couple of these tips that I’m about ready to share, and whichever ones you like right off the bat, practice them over and over again. They’re small. So one thing that you can do is when you’re going up to somebody, take one thing that is superficial about whatever they’re wearing, whatever, like, you know, and men can do this too. Women aren’t the only ones who do this. Men do this too. So, you know, like, you can, especially like shoes. There are some men who love the shoe thing and these certain brands of shoes that y’all have, or, you know, if somebody’s in a 3-piece suit, their pocket square, whatever it is that you all wanna do. If they’re wearing fun socks, that’s always fun.

Jessie Zaylia [00:36:10]:
But take something that you, like about whatever it is that they have about their ensemble. It’s super easy because you can observe it in an instant, but it has to be genuine. You have to actually like the thing, be authentic, and say, oh, where did you get your whatever blah blah? I’ve been thinking about getting one of those. Like, I’m wondering, where did you get it? How long have you had it? It’s like shoes. Are your shoes actually comfortable, or do they kind of suck? You know, whatever. And just introduce yourself that way. That’s the way to start a conversation. You could just— you can, when it comes to being at a networking event and there’s a group of people and you kind of want to get in there and you think, how in the world am I going to start getting into this little group conversation when I’m clearly right now outside of the group observing it? A little tip there is honestly one little Half step at a time, just stepping your way into that circle.

Jessie Zaylia [00:37:11]:
People will make room. Most people will make a little bit of room, but you have to be the one to at least start that. It’s a half a step at a time. That’s really small. It can feel uncomfortable at first, but just get in there. If you feel too awkward doing that, then you can do what I like to do, which is kind of take a big step in. And I don’t— Wave, but I kind of put my hand up so it looks sort of like a wave. You know, if people are looking at me and expecting me to say something, I say, hi there, I just thought I’d do the awkward thing that we’re all, you know, not wanting to do at these events.

Jessie Zaylia [00:37:47]:
And it’s funny because you’re saying the thing that everybody’s thinking, but nobody wants to say. So it’s a little bit of humor. These are just little teeny tiny tips. And one thing I’ll say about Exiting a conversation, because especially if we’re at a networking event, even though we might love the idea of spending the entire time with a single person, that might not be the best move for us. And it might come off as a little bit clingy or desperate. So if you need to move on to a different conversation, you can say something as simple as, it was just so great to meet you. I appreciate you taking this time and I look forward to connecting. And then have that be that.

Jessie Zaylia [00:38:26]:
That’s so, so, so simple. I had a guy once, oh my God, I could not believe these tech events that I go to. The tech ones are the weirdest ones. And this tech bro once was talking to me. We were in the middle of a somewhat lively conversation and then he said, well, you know, I’m gonna go talk to some other people because I can’t be talking to you the whole time. And I thought, holy cow, this guy has no EQ whatsoever. It was so bad. Like, I wish you the best of luck in your business.

Jessie Zaylia [00:38:54]:
You’re gonna go super far if that’s how you’re talking to people. So, but it doesn’t have to be like that. And yet you don’t have to be, you know, handcuffed to one person all night long. You can say, well, it was so great to meet you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening and we’ll be in touch. I’m looking forward to it.

David Hall [00:39:12]:
Boom. Done. Yeah, you can move around. But at the same time, don’t feel like you have to meet everybody, you know.

Jessie Zaylia [00:39:18]:
Absolutely.

David Hall [00:39:19]:
Find out what works for you.

Jessie Zaylia [00:39:22]:
Yeah. And if it is about meeting the one person, and if that’s your goal, if that’s what Katie Dunn would say, her, if her one goal was to meet one person, once you’ve had that genuine conversation that you want to have, then you can leave. You can wrap it up and leave. If your goal is to meet 2 or 3 people, then make sure that you’re actually doing that. The goal isn’t to meet everyone at the— that’s not going to happen anyway, and it’s not an enjoyable experience. I hate the punch card thing. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this, David. You go to a conference, they’re like, here’s your punch card and go to all the exhibit hall thingies, and it’s so so dumb.

Jessie Zaylia [00:39:56]:
It’s so transactional. It’s the stupidest thing ever. I don’t know who invented this, but it makes me want to kind of like punch them in the throat. Okay, not true violence, but metaphorically. I don’t know, it’s— how, how did somebody decide that that’s a meaningful thing? It’s not. People literally hand their punch cards. They’re like, okay, punch the card. Why? It’s meaningless.

Jessie Zaylia [00:40:19]:
And we don’t thrive on that. Introverts don’t thrive on that.

David Hall [00:40:22]:
No. Guess who doesn’t do that? I just Ignore those kinds of activities.

Jessie Zaylia [00:40:26]:
I never do. I’m like, this is stupid. Yeah, even these intimate events that I’ve been to where you’re told pay a whole ton of money, you’re going to be next to the right people, it’s an intimate event. I get suckered by that word intimate because I’m like, okay, now this is what I can get into. I don’t want to be in a room full of hundreds of people. And I swear to God, I have done this where I’ve paid good money to go to these alleged intimate events where it’s the opposite of intimate. You’re crowded. There are literally hundreds of people there.

Jessie Zaylia [00:41:01]:
And then at one of those things, I literally got a punch card. I’m like, here, talk about this topic with some random person. I’m like, this is— yikes. This is my nightmare, you know?

David Hall [00:41:12]:
Jessie, I think we’ve had a great conversation and you’ve shared some really great tips. Is there anything else you want to add before we go tonight?

Jessie Zaylia [00:41:20]:
Yeah, I, I would like to add just one little thing. Lingering from Keely. She is one of the gals that I interviewed, Keely Belton. She says, if you want to lead, you have to be in front. Now, not all introverts want to lead. I think that’s fine. But what I don’t want people to think is because I am an introvert, I can’t— like, that is an option that is closed off to me. I want a big life and a big career.

Jessie Zaylia [00:41:57]:
And I know that there are introverts out there that want that. And some of them maybe have been messaged the wrong thing, that that is closed off to them. No, if you want to lead, you can, but you have to be in front. You have to be in front if you want to lead. And so if you want to be in front because you want to lead, Then all you have to do is work on these tools bit by bit, not all at once, but baby steps. We had talked about baby steps in the book, just like the movie What About Bob? I mentioned What About Bob? One of the best movies. I love it. But little baby steps, it’s important.

Jessie Zaylia [00:42:35]:
You can do what you want. You can get where you want to go if you take that advice and get out in front one little step at a time.

David Hall [00:42:43]:
Yeah. Well said. Introverts can be amazing leaders.

Jessie Zaylia [00:42:47]:
Absolutely. Yeah.

David Hall [00:42:49]:
Thank you, Jesse. Where can people find out more about your book and the great work you’re doing?

Jessie Zaylia [00:42:53]:
They can go on Amazon if they want to. They can find my book on Amazon and just type in Introversion Unleashed and you’ll find it. Or you can go to my website. My website is super basic. It’s just a little bit about me, and that is jessiezylia.com.

David Hall [00:43:10]:
Awesome. Thanks again, Jesse.

Jessie Zaylia [00:43:12]:
Thank you so much.

David Hall [00:43:14]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you’re interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free Typefinder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4-letter Myers-Briggs code. I’ll add a link in the show notes. And I’d love to connect with you. Reach out at [email protected] or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media for Quiet and Strong and much more.

David Hall [00:43:50]:
Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.

David Hall

David Hall, M.Ed. is a speaker, author, and host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, where he interviews thought leaders, creatives, and professionals who help introverts thrive. With over 25 years in higher education, David has led workshops, trainings, and presentations on productivity, personality, and introversion. His mission is to help introverts honor their needs, understand their strengths, and succeed on their own terms. He is the author of Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts and a passionate advocate for creating work environments where introverts can do their best work.