Listen Now
Show Notes
Have you ever wondered why some people thrive in a flurry of social activity while others need quiet reflection to recharge? In this episode of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, host David Hall sits down with Rob Toomey, president and co-founder of TypeCoach, to demystify the world of personality types and explore how understanding our unique preferences can transform our relationships and success at work and home.
You’ll discover the fundamental differences between introversion and extroversion, as well as other key dimensions like sensing vs. intuition, thinking vs. feeling, and judging vs. perceiving. Rob Toomey shares practical strategies for identifying and honoring both your own personality type and those of others, empowering you to improve communication, collaborate more effectively on teams, and align your career and personal life with your natural strengths.
If you want to unlock the “decoder ring” to connecting better with your colleagues, friends, and family—while fully embracing your own strengths—this episode is packed with insights you won’t want to miss. Listen in, learn to communicate more intentionally, and be strong.
Unlocking the Power of Personality Type: My Conversation with Rob Toomey
Celebrating Introversion and Personality Diversity
Welcome back to the Quiet and Strong Podcast! As your host, David Hall, I continue to explore what it means to thrive as an introvert in a world that often prizes extroverted qualities. This episode, I had the privilege of hosting Rob Toomey, president and co-founder of TypeCoach, a leadership development company celebrated for helping teams transform interpersonal differences from a source of stress into a competitive advantage.
Rob’s work, featured recently in the Harvard Business Review, centers on building what he calls “interpersonal competence”: the skill of recognizing, adapting to, and embracing the differences that make each person unique. In our rich conversation, we dove deep into personality type—why it matters, how it shapes our experiences, and how it can be leveraged for personal, professional, and relational success.
The Journey to TypeCoach: Finding Meaning in Personality Patterns
Rob’s journey began in college when he met his wife, Carly. With backgrounds in philosophy and psychology respectively (and some encouragement from family steeped in the world of personality psychology), they started to notice patterns in the way people behave and relate. Using Paul Teager’s books as a starting point, Rob’s initial reluctance (“You can’t categorize the infinite complexity of humanity into 16 tiny little boxes”) gave way to recognizing personality type as a kind of “decoder ring” for understanding relationships.
Their enthusiasm grew so contagious that friends and family urged them to do something meaningful with their insights. After five years practicing law in Boston, Rob and Carly took the leap to professionalize their passion for type and communication, founding TypeCoach at the age of 29.
Understanding Personality Preferences: Beyond Simple Labels
We started by tackling the fundamental question: What is personality? Rob clarifies that, for TypeCoach, they use personality type narrowly, focusing on cognitive preferences identified in the Jung-Myers model (familiar to many through the Myers-Briggs framework) and David Keirsey’s Four Temperaments. These models help understand not only ourselves, but especially others—laying a foundation for improved communication.
Rob’s explanation of the sensing–intuition continuum was particularly relatable. Sensing types prefer practical, detail-oriented thinking focused on the present, while intuitive types thrive on patterns, possibilities, and big-picture thinking. Both capabilities are available to everyone, but each of us has a “default setting” where our brain naturally wants to go.
Importantly, these preferences aren’t choices; they’re inherent tendencies. While under stress, we especially default to these settings, sometimes at the expense of flexibility and perspective.
Do Our Personalities Change? The Myth and the Reality
One common question I often hear is: Do our personalities change over time? Rob’s answer was nuanced. While the broader constellation of personality includes many evolving factors, the fundamental cognitive preferences and temperaments remain stable. However, maturity means learning to access and utilize non-preferred modes. For instance, an introvert may learn to value and practice external communication but will always naturally draw energy from reflection and solitude.
Harnessing Introverted Strengths: Insights for Personal and Professional Growth
As an introvert myself, I relate deeply to our discussion about prep time and reflection. Rob cited research and experience showing that introverts do their best thinking when given a window—sometimes a couple of hours, sometimes up to two days—to reflect on complex challenges. When introverts are “primed” with questions in advance, they show up more polished and articulate, whereas many extroverts may prefer to speak off the cuff.
One practical tip Rob shared is for introverts to aim to participate early in meetings. If we wait too long, the perceived pressure to contribute increases, making it even harder to break in. By jumping in early (especially on topics we’ve prepared for), we become part of the flow, and it’s then easier to ask for more reflection time when needed.
Understanding the Middle Ground: Are There True “Ambiverts”?
Another myth we unpacked was the idea of being in the “middle”—neither fully introverted nor extroverted. Rob makes the case that most people cluster closer to the middle behaviorally, showing elements of both depending on context. Everyone has a limit to social stimulation; the difference is just a matter of where you hit that limit.
Also, extroverts do need quiet time, and introverts aren’t always silent. It’s not the social activity itself, but how we recharge and process experiences that defines us.
Busting Introvert Myths: Engagement and the Reflective Face
A persistent myth is that a quiet or reflective face signals disinterest, disagreement, or lack of comprehension. In reality, when introverts are concentrating, they may not give outward signs of engagement. Rob recommends introverts give verbal cues—even a simple “Let me think about that for a moment”—to let others know they’re processing, not tuned out.
Likewise, extroverts (especially “turbo extroverts,” as Rob puts it) can learn to tolerate moments of silence after asking for input, resisting the urge to fill pauses with more information.
Decoding Thinking vs. Feeling and Judging vs. Perceiving Preferences
We also covered the other Myers-Briggs axes: thinking vs. feeling and judging vs. perceiving. Thinkers tend to step outside a problem for objective analysis, while feelers prioritize harmony, values, and the impacts on people. Both are vital, and clashes can arise if these differences aren’t understood and respected.
Judging vs. perceiving, as Rob explained with plenty of relatable anecdotes, usually manifests as a tug-of-war between planning and spontaneity. Neither approach is better—they simply reflect differing needs for closure versus flexibility. Recognizing that these are not intentional annoyances but natural wiring can take the sting out of disagreements.
TypeCoach’s Unique Approach: Practical, Actionable Communication Tools
What sets TypeCoach apart? According to Rob, most traditional assessments focus on “becoming a better you,” often through one-on-one coaching. TypeCoach instead prioritizes real-world application: improving your ability to communicate and collaborate with others. In workshops, participants start not by focusing on themselves, but by profiling people around them and finding actionable strategies to improve those relationships.
A major difference-maker is learning that the “golden rule” of treating others how you want to be treated isn’t optimal for communication. Instead, it’s about being intentional—understanding the other person’s wiring and “flipping the switches” to connect on their wavelength.
From Teams to Relationships: The Wide Impact of Type Awareness
TypeCoach’s impact isn’t limited to professional life. Rob shared how their methodology helps people build better teams by ensuring all perspectives are valued and that “outlier” voices don’t get lost. Tools like the TypeCoach team report offer advice specifically tailored to each participant’s style, so teams can proactively address potential friction.
But the benefits carry over into friendships, romantic partnerships, and parenting. Once we recognize that differences are natural and not intentional provocations, we gain new appreciation for the role we each play—not just at work, but in every part of our lives.
Aligning Your Life and Career with Your Wiring
Rob’s own professional journey is an illustration of this principle. Practicing law, he spent about 80% of his day immersed in detail work—something he could do well, but that drained his energy. Eventually, he pivoted to spend more of his time in roles that played to his strengths: strategic thinking, idea generation, and helping people solve complex problems. His goal (and one I firmly support) is for people to spend at least half their workweek on activities that energize them, not just those they can tolerate.
The Dirty Laundry Principle: Sharing the Work for Greater Satisfaction
One insight that really stuck with me was Rob’s “dirty laundry principle.” Tasks that feel like chores to you might be energizing for someone else—so why not swap? This applies at work and at home. Through self-awareness and teamwork, we can each gravitate toward what brings us energy, and let go of guilt when delegating what doesn’t.
Key Takeaways
- Personality preferences, such as introversion/extroversion, sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling, and judging/perceiving, shape how individuals process information, make decisions, and interact with others 07:27 23:24.
- Recognizing and respecting different personality types within teams and relationships improves communication, reduces conflict, and enhances collaboration 32:10 34:34.
- TypeCoach focuses on helping people identify and adapt to others’ preferences in real time, supporting effective communication rather than simply self-reflection 32:12.
- Introverts and extroverts have different needs for processing and contributing—preparing in advance helps introverts participate confidently, while extroverts may prefer off-the-cuff interactions 12:17.
- Embracing personal strengths and aligning roles or careers with personality preferences leads to greater satisfaction and effectiveness, rather than trying to “fix” one’s natural wiring 41:05 43:21.
Make Changes Now
Immediate Actions You Can Take
- Acknowledge Your Cognitive Preferences
- Pay attention to your natural preferences (e.g., introversion/extroversion, sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling, judging/perceiving). Recognize situations where your energy flows or gets drained as described by Rob Toomey at 08:15 and 42:10.
- Prepare for Meetings Based on Your Style
- If you are an introvert, anticipate topics before group discussions and come prepared to participate early. This lowers the pressure to contribute later in the meeting, as discussed at 14:16.
- Communicate Your Processing Needs
- Practice articulating when you need time to think before responding. Simple signals like “Let me think about that” can help others understand you are engaged, not checked out (21:25).
- Start Profiling Others’ Preferences
- Pay attention to clues in your colleagues’ or family members’ behaviors and adapt your communication accordingly. For example, if they need more details or time to process, adjust your approach (32:19).
- Exchange Tasks for Greater Efficiency
- Swap or share “dirty laundry” tasks on your team—things that drain your energy but might excite someone else (47:11). Collaborate to ensure everyone is playing to their strengths.
Final Reflections: Open Doorways, Not Boxes
As we wrapped up, Rob emphasized a critical point: while we each have preferences, those don’t define our limits. Learning about type opens doorways to greater understanding and possibility, not boxes that confine us. If you’re able to align your work, communication, and relationships with your wiring, life just gets easier—and far more satisfying.
To learn more about Rob and TypeCoach, visit typecoach.com or connect with him on LinkedIn.
Until next time, keep embracing your strengths, understand your needs, and never stop learning about yourself and those around you. Introversion and all our unique preferences are something to be proud of—and they’re truly the quiet foundation of our greatest strength.
Links & Contacts
Rob Toomey is President and Co-Founder of TypeCoach, a leadership development company that helps organizations transform interpersonal differences from a source of friction into a source of competitive advantage.
His work was recently featured in Harvard Business Review following a landmark collaboration with Harvard Business School. TypeCoach’s interpersonal competence methodology helped reduce the number of student teams requiring faculty intervention from 45 of 158 teams to just one in a single year.
Rob helps leaders build interpersonal competence—the ability to accurately understand other people and adapt before communication breaks down.
Connect with Rob on Linkedin
– – –
Contact the Host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast:
David Hall
Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster
quietandstrong.com
Gobio.link/quietandstrong
david [at] quietandstrong.com
NOTE: This post may contain affiliate links. I may earn a commission if you make a purchase, at no extra cost to you.
Take the FREE Personality Assessment: Typefinder Personality Assessment
Follow David on your favorite social platform:
Twitter | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Youtube
Get David’s book:
Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts
Get Quiet & Strong Merchandise
Timestamped Overview
00:00 The authors found their personality type model so insightful for understanding relationships that it eventually prompted them to pursue it professionally after their friends and family grew tired of hearing them discuss it constantly.
06:27 The discussion focuses on the narrow usage of the term “personality type” to refer specifically to the cognitive preferences from the Jung-Myers model and the Four Temperament framework, which are used to help profile others’ behavioral styles for better communication strategies.
07:33 This section discusses cognitive preferences, specifically sensing and intuition, explaining that sensing involves practical, present-focused thinking, while intuition involves looking for future patterns, with individuals preferring one mode over the other based on which provides them more energy.
11:35 The section discusses how introverts perform better when they have time to reflect on complex questions and suggests that providing questions in advance can help them articulate their thoughts more effectively, while extroverts may excel in spontaneous scenarios.
14:06 The speaker advises introverts to anticipate 1 or 2 discussion topics before meetings, participate early to ease ongoing involvement, and find it beneficial when a more complex question arises after initial participation.
16:59 People often misidentify their introversion or extroversion by comparing themselves to extremes, not recognizing that most people exhibit a mix of traits and have varying thresholds for social interaction, with even extroverts like the speaker and his wife having different limits.
20:09 The section discusses how extroverts often misinterpret a blank stare from introverts as a need for more information or a pending disagreement, when in reality, the introverts are simply processing, so extroverts should give them space before expecting a response.
26:27 The discussion highlights the differing responses between judging and perceiving types, focusing on the latter’s discomfort when options are restricted and emphasizing the importance of understanding these inherent personality traits as unintentional rather than deliberate.
29:50 The text discusses how being drawn to romantic partners with different traits can bring new qualities into one’s life, emphasizing the value of spontaneity and unplanned moments that partners who are more carefree encourage.
31:17 The main difference of their approach, compared to others, is the focus on improving interpersonal communication without the need for personal development coaches, by applying personality observation to enhance interactions with colleagues, clients, and bosses.
35:11 The text discusses intentional communication and the importance of understanding different cognitive preferences, especially how sensing individuals assess ideas based on logistic feasibility, which requires setting appropriate expectations in discussions with them.
37:35 The passage discusses efforts to improve team communication and relationship dynamics in various organizations, highlighting how these skills also enhance personal relationships at home by enabling individuals to better understand and articulate the best approaches for interactions.
40:50 The speaker discusses their experience in career transition coaching, emphasizing the importance of aligning work with one’s temperament rather than following others’ definitions of success, to find more energizing and enjoyable work.
45:22 The speaker recounts how their highly intelligent friend Tim struggled with organizing detailed real estate documents due to differences in personality wiring, affecting his confidence compared to a less credentialed colleague who excelled at it.
48:54 The section discusses the idea that while we have personal preferences, they should not confine us, and by embracing them as opportunities for understanding rather than limitations, life becomes easier when we align with our true selves.
49:57 The section encourages listeners to explore other episodes, engage with the host by sharing feedback or questions via email or the website, and emphasizes the importance of understanding and utilizing one’s introverted strengths.
Podcast Transcript
Rob Toomey [00:00:00]:
Yeah. So, Carly, my wife and I met in college and she was a psychology major. I was a philosophy major. And she went through a class and her mom, who’s a PhD psychologist, basically got her into the topic of personality type, mostly through Paul Teager’s books, which are a great sort of access point for those new to the material. And my initial impulse was, you can’t do that. That’s BS. You can’t categorize the infinite complexity of humanity into 16 unique tiny little boxes. And that was my initial impulse.
Rob Toomey [00:00:33]:
But what ended up happening for us, David, is it became a decoder ring for our relationships. We started to see the patterns with our own eyes and sort of reformulate the model through our own experience. And it became a really powerful shortcut to understanding the people that we were dealing with, whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a family member, whether it’s a professor, a potential employer. And so then I went off to law school and became a lawyer, but I never stopped talking about this personality type stuff with Carly. And our friends and family were like sick of it. They’re like, you guys have to do something with it professionally because you can’t shut up about it, obviously.
David Hall [00:01:18]:
Hello and welcome to episode 295 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I am your host, David Hall, and the creator of quietandstrong.com. It’s a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts, along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally, we will air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show.
David Hall [00:01:46]:
Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing. Rob Toomey is president and co-founder of Type Coach, a leadership development company that helps organizations transform interpersonal differences from a source of friction into a source of competitive advantage. His work was recently featured in the Harvard Business Review following a landmark collaboration with Harvard Business School. I’ve coached his interpersonal competence methodology, helped reduce the number of student teams requiring faculty intervention from 45 of 158 to just 1 in a single year. Rob helps leaders build interpersonal competence, the ability to accurately understand other people and adapt before communication breaks down.
David Hall [00:02:38]:
All right. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong Podcast, Rob. Rob, it’s so good to have you on today.
Rob Toomey [00:02:43]:
Delighted to be here, David.
David Hall [00:02:45]:
Yeah, I love the work you’re doing with Type Coach, and we’re going to get into that. First, tell us a little bit about yourself.
David Hall [00:02:50]:
Sure.
Rob Toomey [00:02:50]:
So, I grew up in New Hampshire, went to school in Connecticut where I met my wife, went off to law school, became a lawyer with big law firms in Boston for 5 years, and then followed our passion. My wife and I started our business together in the topic of personality type 21 years ago, and it’s It’s been a wild ride ever since.
David Hall [00:03:08]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:03:08]:
Where did that passion come from? How did you get interested in personality type?
Rob Toomey [00:03:12]:
Yeah. So, Carly, my wife and I met in college and she was a psychology major. I was a philosophy major. And she went through a class and her mom, who’s a PhD psychologist, basically got her into the topic of personality type, mostly through Paul Teager’s books, which are a great sort of access point for those new to the material. And my initial impulse was, you can’t do that. That’s BS. You can’t categorize the infinite complexity of humanity into 16 unique, tiny little boxes. And that was my initial impulse.
Rob Toomey [00:03:44]:
But what ended up happening for us, David, is it became decoder ring for our relationships. We started to see the patterns with our own eyes and sort of reformulate the model through our own experience. And it became a really powerful shortcut to understanding the people that we were dealing with, whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a family member, whether it’s a professor, potential employer. And so then I went off to law school and became a lawyer, but I never stopped talking about this personality type stuff with Carly. And our friends and family were like sick of it. They’re like, you guys have to do something with it professionally because you can’t shut up about it, obviously. And we were lucky to jump out and do that relatively early. You know, we were only 29 years old when we, when we launched the business.
Rob Toomey [00:04:26]:
Which, you know, it minimized the risk, you know, because we didn’t have any kids and sort of hadn’t sort of developed into a lifestyle that we could only afford through the lawyering. So that was the journey.
David Hall [00:04:38]:
So early on you were using type with people, you know, and I mean, sometimes understanding this can just give you a helpful language to understand people. And, you know, sometimes it might be humorous too. Is that what you were finding? You could discuss different, you know, how to understand people early on?
Rob Toomey [00:05:00]:
Yeah. So, it’s a combination of practicality and curiosity, right? So, we’d look at, for example, our friends Josh and Jared are both the same overall 4-letter code in our terminology, but obviously very different individuals. You know, one grew up traveling around the world. His dad was a doctor with the UN. The other grew up in inner-city Philadelphia. And so, the individual humans are very different. But how they take in, process information, how they make decisions, how they structure their lives had a remarkable level of similarity. And that was what led us to, all right, well, what else is there? You know, like, tell us more.
Rob Toomey [00:05:35]:
And so Carly and I are basically in the business of collecting nuggets, nuggets of consistency in the pattern of personality type over the years.
David Hall [00:05:43]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:05:44]:
And how long did you practice law for?
Rob Toomey [00:05:47]:
Too long. 5 years. And, you know, it’s funny, we’ll touch on this later.
David Hall [00:05:52]:
Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:05:52]:
But when I reflect back on it, you know, the vast majority of my day was spent out of my natural preferences. And there’s only so long you can do that. And while that percentage would increase over time, had I stayed within the profession, the pathway to that was not really feasible for me. It just didn’t make sense for me to put 15 years in before I started to, you know, turn in my favor. And that’s when I decided to look around.
David Hall [00:06:15]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:06:15]:
Yeah. We’re definitely gonna get more into that. And you just mentioned preferences and let’s talk about that. What is personality and what are our personality preferences?
David Hall [00:06:26]:
Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:06:27]:
So we, we like to think about the broader term personality type in a very, very narrow way. And I think part of the, the challenge out there in the world at large is that people try to put too much into that bucket. When we use the term sort of casually, we’re referring to the cognitive preferences identified in the Jung-Myers model that was popularized by instruments like the Myers-Briggs. That’s primarily Carl Jung’s model, but Isabel Myers added to it nicely. And then we also use the Four Temperament framework that was popularized by David Keirsey. And those 2 sort of lenses put together are what we use to, in our work, help someone profile the other person that’s sitting across from them, whether it’s a colleague or a client or whomever. Based on their behavioral styles and their clues of sort of like underlying preferences and temperament to put together a good hypothesis of the best approach to take from a communication perspective in light of that human. The broader notion of personality type includes a lot of other variables.
Rob Toomey [00:07:23]:
We’re just really focusing on the cognitive wiring and the temperament elements.
David Hall [00:07:28]:
Yeah. So tell us about the different, the different types.
Rob Toomey [00:07:33]:
Sure. Well, so, if we take the preferences, for example, what we mean by preference is, like, I love talking about sensing and intuition because it’s such a good example of one that we humans use both all day, every day, right? So, sensing is grounded, practical, realistic thinking focused on the here and now, like looking around in my immediate circumstance, what do I see? What are we going to do? Intuition is pushing your brain out a little bit further into the future. looking for patterns and connections, and then saying, what is this going to do for us down the road? And we sort of articulate this as it’s like having 2 different computers in your brain. You’ve got the sensing computer for that kind of activity. You’ve got the intuitive computer. When we say preference, a cognitive preference means that if I prefer intuition, it means that I get energy using the intuitive computer. And when I access and use the sensing computer, it’s a Perfectly easy and natural thing for me to do, but it’s a draining activity. It requires more energy and focus for me to do.
Rob Toomey [00:08:33]:
And so I always like to use that one because people can think about how often they’re flitting between those 2 functions. And one they find is easy and sort of accessible, and, you know, they’re gonna have an energy sort of emerge from doing it. And the other one’s like, oh my gosh, I spent so much time in sensei-ing and I’m not— I don’t have that preference. So like, I am— I need a break.
David Hall [00:08:53]:
Yeah, I think the other thing is, it’s really your natural way to go. And, you know, it’s not, you know, sometimes people hear preferences, and it’s not necessarily a conscious choice, like, I’m going to use this. But, you know, for me, I’m intuitive. So I am seeing in the big picture, you know, I work with someone that’s sensing, and it’s just her natural go-to, to really look at, look at the details, for example. And it’s, you know, again, I can do details, but I am generally thinking big picture. That’s just my natural go-to. Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:09:26]:
Yeah. We think of it as the default setting, right? It’s where your brain wants to go, naturally wants to go. And interestingly, I just put a note in my notepad here to talk about what happens under stress. Because what happens under stress is that’s when we retreat to our default preference and it becomes harder for us to access the other stuff. or even to remember that it’s important to do, at least from a communication perspective.
David Hall [00:09:49]:
Yeah. And Rob, I get all the time, David, do our personalities change? How do you answer that?
Rob Toomey [00:09:56]:
Well, yeah, it’s a great point. I think this is where the broader notion of personality, right? So if you throw everything else in the bucket, then of course, yes, you’re going to show up very differently as you mature. When it comes to the cognitive preferences and the temperament, I don’t think those actually change. But the way that they manifest for you, how you access them and use them, and then how you show up in the world around you from a behavioral perspective, absolutely. I hope that changes as we mature and grow, right? So if you take the turbo extrovert early in his or her life, hopefully they’ve learned in their mid-20s to late 20s the value of some solitude and some silence. Does that mean that they’re becoming an introvert? No. understanding the value of a non-preferred activity. And that’s what happens to us as humans.
Rob Toomey [00:10:44]:
So, does that person switch their cognitive preference? I don’t think so, but they’re going to show up very differently as a result.
David Hall [00:10:51]:
Yeah. And I mean, introversion, extroversion, for me, I’m an introvert and I naturally tune inward more often than not, and I process internally. That’s never going to change for me. And for me, in a lot, a lot of this show is understanding that and really tapping into that, but also understanding the extroverts in my life that, you know, they might want to talk things out with me more than I want to talk things out, you know, and understanding that that’s, that’s, you know, along, that’s where some of the maturity comes from is just understanding myself, what I need, where my strengths lie, and maybe Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:11:35]:
Well, it’s certainly what I hope will happen for a lot of people as they encounter this material, whether it’s through a conversation like this or listening to your podcast. I want to embolden people to better utilize their wiring as opposed to trying to, I don’t know, go under the hood and try to rewire. That’s not realistic, right? So, for example, we find that introverts in general do their best thinking when they’ve had somewhere between 2 and 48 hours to reflect on a complex question. So, I don’t mean like, David, what’d you have for breakfast? It’s like, where do you see your business in 18 months? And the general answer from the introverts is, yeah, a couple hours to a couple days, I start to really crystallize my thinking. And I don’t think that’s going to change. So, you’re not going to get the best out of your introverts unless you have primed the pump in advance. Now, we were talking about preparing for a podcast interview like this. I do believe that introverts will have an easier time coming across polished, composed, and articulate if they get the questions in advance, whereas some extroverts would benefit from just coming in off the cuff.
Rob Toomey [00:12:38]:
And that’s, that’s a wiring difference that I think you got to play to, to make the most out of your wiring.
David Hall [00:12:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. I shared that with you. I, I provide questions in advance. It’s not a script. It’s just, you know, the talking points we’re going to This is the direction we’re going. But I see differences in, in the need for those with my introverted guests versus my extroverted guests. And it’s, you know, it’s just a matter of preference.
David Hall [00:13:02]:
And, and also as far as, you know, needing to think, it’s a strength. And that’s where, that’s where definitely I gain confidence. I used to lack confidence is when I realized, oh, this person over here is probably gonna come up with quicker ideas, but my ideas are gonna be very good if I give ’em time. And I’ve learned sometimes as an introvert, I need to ask for that time. Like you said, 2 to 48 hours, you know, you can prepare. So, you know, maybe that time is spent ahead of time, ahead of the meeting preparing You know, that 2 hours, you know, looking over what’s going to happen. You can’t prepare for everything, but that’s just a really good example. And that’s not going to change for me.
David Hall [00:13:51]:
I definitely do very well giving my brain some time to do its work. And the thing I’ve learned is articulating that, hey, let me think about that for however long it is I need to think about.
Rob Toomey [00:14:06]:
So here’s what I do when I’m talking to people who are early in their learning journey about that element. So you’ve mastered it, right? You understand that that’s a critical part of how you’re going to be successful. For the most part, what I’m advising people on the introvert side to do is to think about 1 or 2 things they can anticipate ahead of the meeting that’s going to come up, a topic they know they’re going to talk about, and come in prepared to participate on those 1 or 2 topics and start talking early. What we find with the introverts that we talk to is if they wait too long, then the burden of participation becomes higher. Right? It’s like, oh, all of a sudden, like it’s been 20 minutes in the meeting and I haven’t said anything. It’s like lifting the ocean for me to interject. But if I put myself out there early, then it’s easier to continue to participate. And then the magic moment happens when someone asks a more complicated question that you do want to reflect on because you’ve participated already.
Rob Toomey [00:15:01]:
Now you’ve got clearance to say, you know what, Rob, that’s a great question. I want to put some thought into that and get back to you. With a really well-thought-out answer as opposed to off the cuff here in the moment. Because you’ve already contributed, you’re now able to more easily in that context, you know, you know, take what you need, which is that, that extra time for reflection.
David Hall [00:15:20]:
Yeah. And also, you know, as introverts are thinking, they, it can be perceived that they’re not engaged, you know, that they don’t have anything to say. And that participate— and I’ve, I’ve heard people say, oh, wait till the end. And I’m like, no, you know, start out from the beginning so people know you are there. You’re engaged, you have things to say. And like you said, there might be things you need to think about, but that way then you can say, give me some time to think about that.
Rob Toomey [00:15:47]:
Yes, exactly right. If, if, uh, I think that a lot of introverts carry around, like, dread’s not the right word, but they are spending a lot more time ahead of the meeting worried about their participation as opposed to if they get in the habit of talking early, right? They’re gonna see that it’s not that big a deal. The main point of contention for the introverts is when they wait too long and it has that sort of extra weight behind it to participate.
David Hall [00:16:13]:
Yeah. So Rob, the other question I get all the time is, hey, can I be in the middle? You know, I think I have introvert and extrovert qualities. What do you say to that one? Good.
Rob Toomey [00:16:24]:
Yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a healthy sign of balance, right? Maturity. I think there, there is a range, right? So we’ve got people who you, you could probably think of who are They spend all day in meetings and on the phone, not a moment of silence. They get in the car to drive home for 15 minutes, no, they’re going to actually pick up the phone and call someone. That’s not most extroverts, but you can think of people who meet that description. And then certainly on the extreme introvert side, you have people who take long pauses before they respond. They’re barely physically in motion. You see very little expressiveness. And a lot of introverts are like, I’m not like that.
Rob Toomey [00:16:59]:
And so what ends up happening is when people see the extremes, they dissociate it from it and they’re like, well, I can’t be an introvert if that’s what that means, without realizing that the vast majority of us are clustered much closer to the middle from a behavioral perspective. We’re showing elements of both in our day-to-day. I like to describe it as everyone’s got a limit on how much social and stimulation they need. So my wife and I are both extroverts, but she’s more extroverted than I am. In the sense that she has longer to go before she wants to get away from people, right? So if we, if we co-facilitate a workshop with a couple hundred people, afterwards I am completely wiped and I want to just go into the hotel room and watch TV. And she’s ready to go down to the bar and socialize with the people that she’s just— she hasn’t hit her limit yet. Will she later? Absolutely. Everyone has their limit, even the extreme edge cases.
Rob Toomey [00:17:50]:
So I like it. I like to think of it that way. There’s obviously a lot of other social elements, right? So I remember years ago working with the president of a division of one of our clients who was convinced he was an introvert, despite the fact that I couldn’t see a single clue for that in his behavior. But he was Scottish and he grew up in a very private sort of family and didn’t like to talk about himself or anything like that. So what actually ended up happening is you have to move out of the social category. I think a lot of people overemphasize how people show up socially on determining extrovert, introvert. And I said, well, how do you feel after you’ve spent, you know, 3 or 4 hours just working focused on, you know, at your desk? And he starts to smile. He’s like, I don’t think that’s ever happened.
Rob Toomey [00:18:37]:
He’s like, after about 8 or 9 minutes, my feet get itchy. I got to stand up. I got to go talk to someone. I’m like, I’m sorry, bro. I don’t think you can claim the introvert card here because that’s just not going to be the case for most introverts. Yeah.
David Hall [00:18:49]:
And it really, I like that you say it, it’s not so much the social part really. It’s how, it’s how we’re processing information. And yeah. And that’s the other thing, myth about extroverts that we could bust is that they don’t ever need a break. That’s, that’s kind of silly, you know?
David Hall [00:19:07]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:19:07]:
But like you said, you and your wife, you, you have different, you know, limits. It was funny. I, The very first podcast I was on, it was an introvert extrovert couple, and that was kind of the basis of the show. And she said, he doesn’t like to go dancing with me. And he’s like, yes, I do, but I’m done at midnight and you’re, you’re still going at 3 o’clock in the morning.
David Hall [00:19:29]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:19:29]:
I love it.
David Hall [00:19:30]:
So anyway, you know, we bust myths on this show and, you know, especially about introversion. Is there an introverted myth that you see out there that you wanna bust?
Rob Toomey [00:19:40]:
Well, we’re touching on a number of them, right? What came to my mind just as you were describing that last piece is the misinterpretation that people have about a lack of engagement with a more reflective face, right? So, if the introvert is asked a substantial question and their brain is now fully focused on it, they’re often not aware of what’s happening on the surface, right?
David Hall [00:20:04]:
Absolutely.
Rob Toomey [00:20:05]:
And if they’re not careful, they’re going to mismanage their perception.
David Hall [00:20:09]:
Right?
Rob Toomey [00:20:09]:
People are going to assume one of two things, David, is the two main things that come up, a lack of comprehension or an impending disagreement, right? So, if I say a great new idea to someone and I get that blank stare, I assume one of those two things if I’m an extrovert who hasn’t learned this lesson. And so, the extroverts often have the recipe of, well, they need more information from me. I’m going to head them off at the pass on the disagreement. Or I’m going to re-clarify my points so that they have the comprehension. When in fact, all that’s happening is the introvert is processing what you’ve just conveyed. And so additional information is all it’s going to do is throw off that processing function. So if I could tell people one thing, it’s like, please, after you do that, even if you’re getting the blank stare that makes you feel uncomfortable, give them the space. Wait for the response.
Rob Toomey [00:21:00]:
And more often than not, you’re not going to see a lack of comprehension or a disagreement. You’re going to see a thoughtful reply or sort of some sort of substantive element coming back at you.
David Hall [00:21:09]:
Yeah, I think that’s the problem. I’ve had that problem where my face doesn’t always match what’s going on and it can be misinterpreted. It’s like, I’m thinking, you know?
Rob Toomey [00:21:18]:
Yeah. So like the, the other thing that introverts can do in that case is to give some sort of signal, right? Because if you, if you’re talking to a turbo extrovert in particular, they assume that you’re going to behave like they would. In that moment, which is to show some excitement and, oh, great question. So a signal can be something simple like, oh wow, I had not thought of that. Give me a second to think that through. Or it could be an um or an ah. A placeholder lets them know that you’re still participating in the dialogue. I also— this same exact phenomenon shows up in a lot of other contexts where, like, if you’re not careful as a salesperson, you know, conveying some excitement on your face along with the words that you’re saying will often be interpreted by the extrovert as a lack of enthusiasm for what it is you’re suggesting.
Rob Toomey [00:22:08]:
And you can imagine the same thing in a spousal context where one spouse’s, you know, their energy level for the topic isn’t meeting the expectation of the recipient. And so there’s a disconnect between, I am super excited about this project, right? And, you know, the actual excitement that might be legitimate that they can’t perceive because it’s not being met with the same sort of expressiveness.
David Hall [00:22:29]:
Yeah. So we, we’re, we’re talking about introversion and extroversion. You touched on sensing and intuitive. Let’s just briefly describe thinking versus feeling and, uh, judging versus perceiving.
David Hall [00:22:42]:
Sure.
Rob Toomey [00:22:43]:
So thinking and feeling is the decision-making function. So people have that default setting for one or the other. I do believe that the best decisions in life, both professionally and personally, involve considering both lenses, right? There’s the thinking lens, which is Pros and cons analysis, objectively stepping out of the equation, what would anyone in this circumstance do? And then the feeling perspective, which is, how do I feel about this? Is this consistent with my values? And how is it going to impact the people who are specifically involved in this particular decision? And we default to one. So you and I both default towards the thinking side, which is it’s easy and energizing for us to have that objective analysis. And then we have to usually remind ourselves, OK, let’s plug the people piece in.
David Hall [00:23:23]:
Exactly.
Rob Toomey [00:23:24]:
And then vice versa, the feelers who we work with and live with, they just do the exact opposite from an ordering perspective. And that’s, that’s, you know, I’ll pause there and see if that— because you got a smile on your face, you probably got something to throw in there.
David Hall [00:23:37]:
No, I mean, it’s, it’s just very true. And it’s, again, it goes back to our preferences. Where do we start from? Where do we lead from? And if this is also another one where if you don’t understand the difference You know, there could be some major clashes if you’re, you’re, if you’re approaching it from a thinking perspective and someone else is approaching a big decision from a feeling perspective. You know, definitely they might think that we are cold-hearted. Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:24:05]:
Yeah. Well, and it, it’s, this is in romantic relationships. This is a spot where a lot of emotional energy comes out of because we’re talking about things that involve emotion and the, the people piece of the equation. So I guess one of the biggest pieces of advice I can give there, when you have someone who’s in an emotional response, they’re usually not looking for the solution. And this is actually true of both thinkers and feelers, but it’s more true for feelers where, and often like the last thing they want is for you to try to wade into their circumstance and give them the proverbial answer. What they’re looking for is support. an acknowledgement that you’re there for them in that moment. And that’s often a blind spot for thinkers who think that the value they can offer in that moment is the solution as opposed to the support.
David Hall [00:24:55]:
Yeah, absolutely. And then there’s judging and perceiving, and those terms probably aren’t that helpful for what they mean.
Rob Toomey [00:25:01]:
Yeah, we’ve actually talked about replacing all the terms, but there’s just a lot of usage of them. Judging and perceiving, you have to clarify, doesn’t mean judgmental, doesn’t mean perceptive. I call this one death by a thousand cuts. This is the one that little by little chips away at the quality of our relationships and trust day by day. So those on the judging side of the equation, judging just means they’re looking for closure. They want to wrap things up, they want to have a plan, and then ideally they get to stick to the plan. So this function really involves how we structure our lives. Those on the perceiving side want to avoid closure.
Rob Toomey [00:25:37]:
They want to keep their options open and live in a more spontaneous and open manner. And this shows up in lots of little ways, little frustrations like, why can’t we just decide on where to go to dinner? Well, I don’t want to. And there’s a tug of war between those 2 perspectives that if people don’t understand, it really, really does wear down the relationship.
David Hall [00:25:56]:
Yeah, it’s funny. My wife and I are very similar. You know, the first 3 letters for us are the same. And, you know, judging and she’s perceiving. And I’m laughing because just what you just said, it’s such an example. Like, I might, we might’ve just eaten lunch and I might say, what are we going to have for dinner? And she’s like, well, I can’t think that far ahead. But in my mind, if we don’t plan it out, nothing’s going to happen. You know, whether we want to make dinner at home or go out to dinner, I want to know.
Rob Toomey [00:26:27]:
Yeah. It’s the, the, I want to know part is that’s the, the real gut of this one. It’s like, once I know it, then I can relax. And the perceivers just don’t have that same impulse, right? In fact, the only time you’re going to see a perceiver start to get uncomfortable is when they realize that their options are being foreclosed, right? So they’re very floating through life, easy breezy. Wait a second, you would take away my options? That’s, that’s when you start to see them get agitated. So optionality is a— it’s a very— Now, so I’ve got a story that I like sharing on this one because The goal in understanding each of these elements, but I think especially true on judging and perceiving, is that the other person didn’t choose to be the way that they are. There’s no intentionality. And as soon as we remove the intentionality, it doesn’t make it sort of obviously just immediately better in all ways, but it takes out the sting, right? This person may still be annoying you, but they’re not trying to be.
Rob Toomey [00:27:26]:
And that’s, there’s a big difference between the two. So when my wife and I first started dating years ago, as a judging type, and there’s no gender difference on this, which I think is always good to point out, the need for planning was very strong in her. It remains that way all these years later. So she had most of the weekends booked out and after whatever, a couple months, like, I haven’t seen my friends. Could I maybe grab one of those weekends and do something with them? She said, no, sure, no problem. This is back in the olden times when she had her day planner. So she opened it up, flipped it out to a weekend. circled it and said, Rob’s weekend.
Rob Toomey [00:28:00]:
Now, Tuesday before that weekend, she’s like, all right, so what are we doing this weekend? Which is a fair question. And I’m like, I don’t know. And I think this is great because we’re gonna just roll into Friday afternoon, see what happens, go to a show, go to grab dinner, whatever. And she’s like, oh, I see, you’re doing that to prove a point. I’m like, no, I’m actually not. This is my natural state. And even at that point, we were deeply immersed in this topic. But it was very valuable for us to understand that I was not trying to prove a point any more than she was trying to prove a point with her approach to life.
Rob Toomey [00:28:34]:
And it takes the steam out of the situation. Like, okay, we’re different. That’s a wiring difference. We’re not going to be able to flip that one around. I’m not suddenly going to become planful and her desire to put those weekends in place isn’t going to go anywhere. What do we do? Now you can get to work on the actual stuff as opposed to Taking it personally.
David Hall [00:28:54]:
Yeah. And, you know, just like I mentioned, for us, me and my wife, that’s where we differ. And there could be a desire to change the other person, right? But it’s never going to happen. You know, I’m, I’m never going to lose my desire to have things planned out far in advance, just like you described for your wife.
David Hall [00:29:13]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:29:14]:
But at the same time, I also figured out again, because understanding these types that we bring something to each other, you know? And I always joke, you know, I’d like to think I bring some order to her. And, you know, if she was here with us, Rob, she’d probably be shaking her head. But definitely, like, you know, sometimes with all my planning, I can get anxious about it. And she brings a calmness to me with her, you know, just more easygoing, spontaneous approach. And so it’s a good thing that we bring to each other. But if we tried to change it, it’s not going to happen.
Rob Toomey [00:29:50]:
You’re describing what I call realistic expectations, right? So, you know, the draw— the reason why we’re drawn to people different from us in a romantic pairing is because we hope that they’re going to bring that element into our world, our shared world. And you’ll get the benefit of, yeah, a little more playfulness, a little bit more go with the flow. You’re not going to become that, but being close to it, you know, makes the access of those moments easier and perhaps more enjoyable because you’re learning from a master. who has a natural gift for doing it, right? I also believe, and this is a message for all the judgers listening, that life’s best moments usually are unplanned. And so, creating space for those in our busy schedules, which we tend to over-index for, is important. And that’s the message that the perceivers are bringing to the world, right? Like, hey, let’s just, let’s go grab a bite. Well, I don’t have that on my calendar. I know, it could be awesome, right? And that’s a healthy balance.
Rob Toomey [00:30:45]:
You know, like if you have, you know, if a team over-indexes on one of these in either direction, the balance needs to be restored somehow, whether it’s by deliberate action within the team or get a couple more people on the other side of the equation, because it’s the most functional teams have good inputs on each of these preference categories so that they’re not just a car that can only take a left-hand turn.
David Hall [00:31:06]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:31:07]:
So anyway, the big part of this conversation, you’ve put all of this into TypeCoach. Tell us about TypeCoach. And how’s it different from other similar type of assessments?
Rob Toomey [00:31:17]:
Yeah, so I think the, the big difference for us— we’ve been in the salt mines for 21 years chipping away, finding these nuggets of, of value. Our focus is primarily— not, not exclusively, but like 95% of our work— is improving interpersonal communication. And so that’s the big difference, is that most of the other models out there are just talking about Helping Rob become a better version of Rob. And if you’ve got a coach who’s going to work with you for 6 months making that transition from, you know, Rob 1.0 to Rob 2.0, that’s going to be— that’s how you get there. In our case, you don’t need that coach because we’re simply applying it into the context of communication. You have a coach if you need it for that personal development, but our system is designed specifically to help you deal with your colleagues, your clients, your boss. more effectively based on the personality dimensions that you’re able to observe. So we’ve sort of flipped the script.
Rob Toomey [00:32:12]:
The first thing we do in our workshops is we say, I don’t want you to think about yourself. I want you to think about the most important relationships around you. I want you to start profiling people based on the clues and behavior, E or I, S or N, going through the preferences and then the temperaments so that you can walk out of here with a list of things that you can do differently. Based on the understanding you have of this other person. And what ends up when we do this right is it’s a lifelong discovery that we’ve unlocked for them. Once they see that, you know, giving introverts that extra time to think and reflect before they participate, they’re like, well, what else can I learn? And, and they become, the ball starts to snowball down from there.
David Hall [00:32:51]:
Very cool. And then just recently you had an article in the Harvard Business Review. Tell us about that.
Rob Toomey [00:32:57]:
Yeah, that was a really fun moment for us. You know, I didn’t appreciate the kind of impact it was gonna have for us in our little business. Yeah, so we did a large piece of work with Harvard Business School. We trained the entire first-year MBA program, and they brought us in because they had specific issues around what the school calls interpersonal competence. So they’re putting these students in this amazing learning experience. They send them to 16 countries around the world, but the teams are breaking down at a fairly significant ratio. And it’s mostly because you’ve got a former McKinsey consultant with a former Marine on a team with no hierarchy, and they don’t know how to sort of navigate that piece. So, we were brought in to solve that.
Rob Toomey [00:33:35]:
And the year before we got in there, 45 out of 158 teams needed a faculty intervention to sort of get the team back on track. And after we did our little thing, that number fell down to 1. So, we were absolutely thrilled with those results, and that’s what the article was really based on.
David Hall [00:33:52]:
Very cool. And so, let’s talk about maybe some examples. I think, you know, when I was growing up, And into my professional life, there seemed to be this, this thought that there’s one way, you know, that there’s one way of doing things. And, you know, like you’ve said in a couple different times, you know, it’s like we’re, we’re wired this way. We come natural, it comes naturally to us, our different preferences. It’s not something that we choose. It’s not something that we can change, but we can definitely understand it.
David Hall [00:34:24]:
So.
David Hall [00:34:24]:
How would someone using Type Coach be able to better communicate with someone, either same preferences or different preferences?
Rob Toomey [00:34:34]:
Yeah, well, I’d love to first get out what you’re describing, which is we tend to follow the golden rule when it comes to communication, right? We give others what we would like to receive if we were the one receiving it. And we’re often confused when the other person has that look of confusion on their face. I mean, I said it perfectly. Why don’t they understand it? And the short answer is we then start to assume the person’s got a lack of intelligence. Or lack of whatever, when in fact it’s actually just a wiring difference. I believe that most people from a communication perspective float around on what I call autopilot. They’re not actually considering their audience. They just talk the way that they would like to be talked to.
Rob Toomey [00:35:11]:
And if it works, it works. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. And they just sort of move on to the next thing. So what we’re really describing is intentional communication, deciding who it is that you’re dealing with, And then flipping the switches on— and we use the preferences and the temperament because they really do influence a lot about how we take in and process information, so it’s a good fit. So if you and I on the intuitive side are talking to someone on the sensing side, we first have to understand that the questions they’re asking about logistic feasibility are actually how they determine whether the idea is good or not. But we often interpret that as them jumping the gun on Stuff that we wouldn’t think about until later on in the process. Why can’t you just tell me if this is a good idea or not? And we can talk about how we would implement it later. When in fact, they are not wired to determine the quality of the idea without first considering the logistic feasibility of the idea, right? So what that means is you and I need to set a different expectation in that conversation, that that logistic feasibility is the intake valve for their consideration of the idea.
Rob Toomey [00:36:16]:
Not a barrier to their, like, you know what I mean? So that’s a very, very big shift that has to happen on the, the person who’s putting the information out there.
David Hall [00:36:26]:
Yeah. And we just need to recognize we need both people. They both bring something. But, you know, if I’m not careful, I could get very irritated with someone that wants to know some details before I’m ready to to give them, or they could be very frustrated with me if I’m not providing enough detail that they need. But I need to realize that I’m bringing something and they’re bringing something. But again, so how do we, how do we learn? How does learning, you know, from Type Coach and our personalities help us navigate that situation?
Rob Toomey [00:37:02]:
Yeah, I think it’s funny when you talk to leaders who’ve worked together for 5 years or more, They figured this stuff out the hard way. Yeah.
David Hall [00:37:10]:
Right?
Rob Toomey [00:37:10]:
They’ve just, they’ve hammered away at it and they’re like, all right, that didn’t work. That didn’t work. That didn’t work. Okay, here we go. So what we’re really trying to do is give that group a language to articulate where that difference emerged from. And then ideally they can cross-pollinate that success with other people who are similar to the person they’ve learned this the hard way with. For people earlier in their relationship with someone else, I want to speed that process up. And make it a lot less painful.
Rob Toomey [00:37:35]:
The example I give of the group that worked for 5 years to hammer this out is followed by the dozens of other people who couldn’t figure it out and who ended up parting ways despite the fact that they could have added great value to that team or that partnership, but they couldn’t navigate the relationship and the communication elements. So, not only are we making it easier for the ones that are still together and accelerating the journey for those who are still learning how how to deal with one another, we’re improving the odds of success. And along the way, people— I always like to talk about this. We’re doing this in the context of larger organizations, everything from the military to retail to finance to technology. We’re coming in, but I know that they’re going to walk out as better parents, as better spouses, because the same dynamics are going to play out in their home lives as in the sort of boardroom. And they’re going to start to be like, oh, wow, I’ve got My wife is a blah, or my husband’s a blah, blah. And they’re going to be able to articulate the best approach to take with that person if we deliver the methodology correctly.
David Hall [00:38:35]:
So with your methodology, what you’re saying is you don’t necessarily, the other person didn’t necessarily need to take Type Coach. Tell us a little bit more about that.
Rob Toomey [00:38:46]:
Yeah. I mean, the best use case inside an organization is that everyone goes through our verification program and then they see each other in the chart. And then you click on Sarah and the system gives you communication advice based on the combination of your 2 personalities. So we’re taking all the guesswork out in that context. But then outside that team or even outside the organization, we’re teaching the skill of profiling someone based on the clues and behavior so that you can approach them more effectively. So this is where, you know, working with clients or prospective customers or key vendor relationships, et cetera, you can actually identify them fairly easily using the techniques that we cover. And that’s expanding your scope of influence to include a much wider range of people than those who happen to share that default style of communication that you might have.
David Hall [00:39:29]:
Yeah, very cool. So how can we use this to build better teams?
Rob Toomey [00:39:35]:
I think teams is interesting, right? So what I find more often than not is that teams tend to have a bias in favor of certain of the preferences. And if they’re not careful, the person who has a different perspective loses their voice in that process, and the team therefore loses an important perspective that would probably add a lot of value to the team. So, that’s one substantive piece. But a lot of miscommunications, a lot of interpersonal challenges are simply based in a wiring difference that, once understood, can be easily navigated. Gallup suggests that managers spend more than 40% of their time dealing with interpersonal challenges within their team. Well, if we can make that number go down, the manager gets to spend a lot more time on far more valuable things than getting John and Sarah to not snip at each other. Right. And so like that, that’s a lot of it.
Rob Toomey [00:40:24]:
So like our team report, for example, goes through and basically advises each member of the team, given the fact that you’re an introvert on a team of mostly extroverts, here’s what you need to do to make it work. And that, that’s really valuable information.
David Hall [00:40:37]:
Yeah, absolutely. And just as far as bringing it back to the personal level, How does understanding these things help you live a more effective and satisfying life?
Rob Toomey [00:40:50]:
It’s been interesting for me. So I, for about a year in between my, the end of my legal career and launching this business, I did career transition coaching. Career transition coaching is just a fancy way of saying someone’s not sure what to do next in their lives. And I find that having an understanding of these elements, and by the way, in particular, the 4 temperaments, allows you to align your work with who you are, as opposed to what most people do is they spend the first 50 years of their time on the planet chasing a definition of success that someone else gave them. And then suddenly they realize like, wait a second, I don’t enjoy that work. Why am I doing that work? And the personality stuff can be really useful decoder lens for that. It’s like, I’m spending way too much of my time doing stuff I don’t find naturally energizing. So let’s reorientate your career towards something that you would find energizing and you’d look forward to doing.
Rob Toomey [00:41:44]:
And that’s, that’s a huge, huge gift if you can sort that out.
David Hall [00:41:48]:
Yeah. And so just back to personal example from you, and you talk about, you know, you were a lawyer. What, what did you find that was draining? And, and then, you know, in your work now, what do you find that’s is really energizing for you?
David Hall [00:42:07]:
Sure.
Rob Toomey [00:42:07]:
So, I like to think about it in terms of percentages. So, on an average day when I was practicing law, I was probably spending 80% of my day working on details. And while I, to this day, I now have a gift for attention to detail because I’ve, that part of my brain is easy for me to access and it produces world-class detailed analysis at great cost to me from an energy perspective. So while I can do it, it is like, oh my God, like by the, by the time I’m done with my day, 80% is not sustainable. 80% out of preference, that person’s going to burn out or move on. It’s just, I’ve not seen someone who can sit in that spot, just really not easy to maintain. So my goal was to get above 50% using my natural wiring. My natural wiring, given my 4-letter code, is ideas and possibilities, Future planning, ideation, complex problem-solving, strategic thinking.
Rob Toomey [00:43:02]:
You come down with the laundry list of stuff that I literally would do regardless of the paycheck. And they say, where can I find that in a career? Where can I find that out in the world so that when I look at my to-do list, I see that more than half of it would be stuff that I would look forward to doing and wink, wink, nod, nod, I would do if they didn’t pay me? And that’s the goal that I’m trying to steer people towards from a career planning perspective. Not 100%, right? There’s always going to be stuff on there. You know, on a, on a bad day, I might have 70 or 80% again working on the detail stuff, but my average day is well north of 50% doing stuff that I look forward and find energizing to do.
David Hall [00:43:39]:
Yeah, we— there’s— that’s life, right? We’re gonna have to do some things that we don’t want to do. But I’m also a big idea person. If you take that away from me, I’m not going to be happy. That’s where I thrive, you know, giving myself some time to think, coming up with some brilliant ideas that are new and innovative. That’s where I’m thriving. If I don’t have any of that, I’m not going to be happy. I am going to burn out.
Rob Toomey [00:44:04]:
And this, I would argue, also where you’re going to add your greatest value, right? So, yes. So I love the example. We worked for years with a Fortune 500. The CEO happens to share your personality type preferences. And what she realized early on is that if she stays in the office all day, 2 things happen. Number one, her introvert batteries wear out really quick because people are just peppering her with all sorts of things, and she gets caught in operational issues as opposed to strategic ideation stuff. And so, often, she would be gone, gone for long stretches of time because her brain does her best thinking on the 48-hour side, not the 2-hour side, right?
David Hall [00:44:41]:
Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:44:41]:
The more time she has to think about it. But then she’d come back with a $150 million breakthrough idea. Well, where does the organization want her spending her time? Troubleshooting and putting out little fires or going off and ideating? The answer is pretty clear. But it still requires a great deal of self-determination and sort of wherewithal to fight the expectation around you that you’re doing all the other stuff.
David Hall [00:45:07]:
Yeah. And that’s such a good example because that’s what this show is all about. What are your strengths? What needs do those bring? And then what are your strategies for success that are going to look different from somebody else? Yeah.
Rob Toomey [00:45:22]:
Yeah. I mean, I remember vividly the off-the-cuff here stuff, Dave, right? So my best stuff is usually, oh yeah, here’s an idea. I had a friend Tim who went to work for his father-in-law’s real estate firm as a lawyer. Tim graduated summa cum laude from an Ivy. He’s just one of the brightest guys I’ve ever met. But what his brain is not wired to do is go through a stack of real estate papers and put them in order and have all the details laid out and all the little sticky notes in the right place. And yet his colleague sitting right next to him who doesn’t have the same credentials was able to do that easily. You can— how do you attribute that if you don’t understand the personality difference in the wiring? Well, you’re going to start to eat at your own self-confidence and you’re going to start telling yourself stories that are actually not best explained with something bad, right? I’m like, Tim, you’re not wired to do that work.
Rob Toomey [00:46:09]:
You could probably do it at a world-class level for a few hours a day, and then it’s going to just fail, right? Because it’s just— in his particular case, David, it’s like the exact opposite end of the spectrum from what he’s supposed to do. It wasn’t even close. Like, there’s a guy who was a, you know, a huge feeler whose job in a bank was enforcement of internal policies. And I said, We’ll call him James. I’m like, James, the great news is every single job on the planet will be better than the one you currently have.
David Hall [00:46:36]:
Right.
Rob Toomey [00:46:37]:
And yet we end up in these spots where, you know, if you don’t understand these elements, you can’t appreciate how bad that is from a fit perspective.
David Hall [00:46:45]:
Yeah. And I was just thinking when you were describing the other person that’s good at it, they’re enjoying it. And maybe someone like you or I can’t relate to their enjoyment, but They’re, it’s a strength they have. And that’s where a lot of this understanding comes in too. You could really partner to get some things done, but you’re each, you know, working within your strengths.
Rob Toomey [00:47:09]:
I actually have a name for this. I call it the dirty laundry principle. See what you think. So everyone listening, look down at your to-do list and think about the stuff that’s been on there for a long, long time. It’s probably even moved from one to-do list to the next to-do list because you’ve got no energy for it. You don’t want to look— you don’t look forward to doing it. And yet you probably feel like it’s a dirty laundry task that you wouldn’t feel comfortable asking someone else to do. It’s like a chore that I, quote, should do.
Rob Toomey [00:47:37]:
When you add the personality lens, there’s probably someone in your world on a team or otherwise who would look forward to doing that work. That would actually be the first thing that they would be like, ooh, I can’t wait to do that. And yet we carry this guilt with us that, you know, I can’t ask, you know, so-and-so to do that because it’s, you know, it’s the bad stuff. It isn’t for someone else who’s wired very differently. And then in fact, what we do on our team is we will often trade the to-do items that we least look forward to doing. So to give a specific example, so I love starting a project, like the early blank piece of paper. What could it look like? I don’t know. Let’s figure it out.
Rob Toomey [00:48:13]:
Energizing for me. At some point between 50 and 80% of the project completion, my energy starts to fall off. But there’s people on my team who love finishing projects and like, give it to me. And here’s something that I don’t know where to start on. You can start another thing. This is a powerful share, but we both have to give ourselves permission to let the work go that we should do in light of the fact that neither of us want to do it.
David Hall [00:48:37]:
Yeah. Dirty laundry. I’m going to use that. That’s great. Rob, this has been a wonderful conversation. I could talk with you all day. Is there anything else you want to add today?
Rob Toomey [00:48:47]:
David, we covered everything I had in my mind. The one thing I wrote in my notes beforehand, so even as a perceiver, I do a little light planning.
David Hall [00:48:54]:
Okay.
Rob Toomey [00:48:54]:
I like to emphasize this notion that we have our preference, but it doesn’t limit our capacity. And that’s a thread that we’ve touched on multiple times in the conversation. So, I’m not limited in terms of who I am and how I can show up based on my preference. And if we do that right, what that means is that each of the preferences I learned about becomes a doorway to understanding as opposed to a box that limits me. And that’s certainly been my experience, you know, interacting with and working with this material over the last 20-plus years. And, you know, the consistency of the pattern, if we’re able to work in alignment with ourselves, you know, life just becomes so much easier than trying to sort of squeeze ourselves into a spot where, while we can do it, it’s not going to be energizing after a period of time.
David Hall [00:49:38]:
Yeah, absolutely. Well said. All right, Rob, of course, where can people find out more about Type Coach and the great work you’re doing?
Rob Toomey [00:49:44]:
Typecoach.com. I’m easily found on LinkedIn, Rob Toomey at Typecoach. You can’t miss me, so hit me up over there.
David Hall [00:49:51]:
All right. Thanks again.
Rob Toomey [00:49:52]:
Appreciate it, David. A lot of fun.
David Hall [00:49:55]:
Thanks so much for joining me today.
David Hall [00:49:56]:
I appreciate you.
David Hall [00:49:57]:
I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from some amazing guests. I’d love to hear from you. What is resonating with you? What questions do you have? Reach out at [email protected] or through the quietandstrong.com website. And let’s keep the conversation going. And as always, get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.
David Hall, M.Ed. is a speaker, author, and host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, where he interviews thought leaders, creatives, and professionals who help introverts thrive. With over 25 years in higher education, David has led workshops, trainings, and presentations on productivity, personality, and introversion. His mission is to help introverts honor their needs, understand their strengths, and succeed on their own terms. He is the author of Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts and a passionate advocate for creating work environments where introverts can do their best work.
