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Show Notes
Have you ever wondered how introverts can not only lead teams but thrive at the highest levels of leadership? In this episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall welcomes Kendra McDonald, CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, to explore the unique strengths and strategies introverted leaders bring to the table. You’ll learn how Kendra McDonald built her career from accountant to influential leader, the importance of preparation and reflection, and how introverts can embrace their energy for effective team communication—especially under pressure.
Whether you’re an introvert aspiring to lead, a manager looking to understand your team better, or someone striving to embrace your quiet strengths, this conversation offers actionable insights and inspiration.
Tune in to hear practical leadership advice, personal stories, and a refreshing perspective on harnessing the full potential of introversion—and be strong.
Embracing Introverted Leadership: My Conversation with Kendra McDonald
Introverts are often misunderstood in the world of leadership. For years, popular perception has favored the idea that strong leaders must be outspoken, highly sociable, and constantly in the spotlight. But what if I told you that quiet can be strong, and that reflective, thoughtful leadership is more needed now than ever? In episode 296 of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, I had the pleasure of welcoming Kendra McDonald, CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, to discuss her journey as an introverted leader, the strengths introverts bring to the table, and practical strategies for thriving at work and beyond. Here’s what I learned and want to share with you.
Who Is Kendra McDonald?
When I first connected with Kendra, I was immediately struck by her impressive track record. As the CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, she leads a national effort to accelerate ocean innovation and position Canada as a global leader in the sustainable blue economy. Under her leadership, the Supercluster has spearheaded over 170 projects, created thousands of jobs, and launched more than 200 ocean companies.
Yet, at her core, Kendra identifies as an introvert. Her journey started as an accountant—picture the classic image of quiet focus, surrounded by spreadsheets—which suited her natural strengths. However, the reality of her career led her onto the world stage, collaborating with clients around the globe and ultimately into leadership roles that required her to embrace communication, visibility, and influence in new ways.
Discovering and Embracing Introversion
Like many introverts, Kendra said she grew up shy, prone to blushing, and drawn to careers where she could work quietly behind the scenes. But adulthood and professional life forced her to confront situations that demanded interaction, confidence, and presence.
It wasn’t just about overcoming shyness—it was about understanding where she drew her energy, how she preferred to process information, and how she could best contribute. Participating in leadership development programs and exploring personality frameworks helped her recognize her introversion as a strength, not a flaw. She learned that her methodical approach to preparation, her ability to listen deeply, and her habit of reflecting before responding were valuable assets, even if they didn’t always look like “typical” leadership.
The Power of Preparation and Thoughtful Communication
One of the major takeaways from our conversation was Kendra’s emphasis on preparation as a source of confidence. For introverts, unfamiliar situations or high-pressure environments can drain energy. Preparation becomes not just a coping mechanism, but a superpower. Whether it was mastering phone calls, practicing presentations, or learning to conquer her dread of voice mails like, “Just give me a call,” Kendra leaned into advance planning and clarity.
Another strength she discussed is the ability to harness silence and reflection in interactions. While extroverted colleagues might be quick to fill pauses with words, Kendra views silence as space for thoughtfulness and genuine engagement. Over time, she realized that her reluctance to simply repeat what others had already said allowed her to bring new, valuable insights to the table.
Beyond Stereotypes: Introverts and Social Connection
A myth we were both eager to bust is the idea that introverts dislike people. Kendra explained—with a nod to her extroverted husband—how introverts simply prefer their social interactions in smaller, more meaningful doses. “You don’t necessarily like being around people,” she’s sometimes heard, but she knows that’s not true. She values building deep, authentic relationships, and meaningful conversation over endless surface-level small talk.
Still, the world doesn’t always operate according to introvert preferences. As a leader, Kendra learned that when stress hits, her instinct is to retreat and focus inward. Ironically, that’s when her team needs her voice and guidance most. Recognizing this, she’s worked to push past her comfort zone, communicating more openly in challenging moments and ensuring her colleagues don’t misinterpret her quiet focus as aloofness or anxiety.
What Makes Introverts Effective Leaders?
Our teams are filled with a spectrum of personalities. Kendra’s approach to leadership is about understanding individuals—introverts, extroverts, and everyone in between. She creates environments where all voices can be heard, from structured meeting agendas to ensuring there are ways for quieter team members to contribute ideas. She’s intentionally learned to overcommunicate in times of stress, to avoid letting her team “feed off her stress” and to foster a culture of inclusion.
Notably, Kendra’s Forbes article on introverted leadership highlights the importance of perspective diversity—and the ways extroverted leaders can unlock the potential of introverts on their teams. Collaborative technology, small group activities, and thoughtful facilitation can help rebalance the scales and ensure quieter personalities aren’t missed.
Practical Strategies for Introverts in Networking and Small Talk
Small talk doesn’t come naturally to all of us. Kendra shared practical hacks—like approaching groups of three instead of two in networking settings, coming prepared with a “nine boxes” framework to guide conversations (topics across work, family, interests, past/present/future), and recognizing that sometimes, chit-chat is just a bridge to more substantive interactions. She’s learned to operate in discomfort when needed, but also to advocate for environments where introverts can thrive.
Plus, it’s important to remember that small talk norms vary by culture and context. Whether she was working in Ottawa, St. John’s, or Hong Kong, Kendra learned to calibrate and adapt, but always aimed for authenticity.
Growing as a Leader: The Journey from Expert to Connector
One of the most insightful parts of our exchange was hearing how Kendra’s leadership evolved. In her early years, technical expertise and preparation were prized. But as she moved up, her value shifted to being a connector and facilitator—bringing the right people into the room and trusting them with their own preparation.
Letting go of perfectionism, becoming comfortable with uncertainty, and learning when “good enough” preparation would suffice became crucial growth points. Today, even with all her experience, she still gets a bit nervous before presenting, and still works to manage the balance between solo recharge and team communication.
On Giving Great Presentations as an Introvert
Many people assume introverts can’t be great public speakers, but Kendra is proof to the contrary. She learned that storytelling and personal authenticity make presentations more compelling than dense slides full of text. She’s driven to bring emotion and energy to the stage—even if it means “pumping herself up” beforehand.
For her, preparation is even more crucial when presenting in her second language, French. The right structure, clear stories, and the flexibility to think on her feet all come from knowing herself and her needs as an introvert.
Advice for Aspiring Introverted Leaders
For introverts seeking growth, Kendra’s advice is to practice leadership skills in safe environments—taking on small roles, seeking out feedback, and embracing discomfort in manageable steps. You don’t have to leap headfirst into the spotlight. Give yourself room to grow by saying yes to new opportunities, reflecting on what worked, and learning what you need to feel energized and effective.
Remember, the reflective nature of introverts is a secret weapon. That ability to analyze, think deeply, and learn from each experience enables continuous improvement—whether you’re presenting a report, running a board meeting, or launching an initiative with a global impact.
Key Takeaways
- Kendra McDonald emphasized that introversion is not a weakness—introverts have unique strengths such as reflection, listening, and thoughtful communication (09:05, 14:51).
- Preparation is a key confidence-builder for introverts. Kendra McDonald highlighted that while perfectionism is common, finding a balance in preparation is important (10:59, 11:44).
- Communication is especially crucial under stress; Kendra McDonald noted that her natural instinct is to withdraw, but leadership requires intentional communication to keep teams aligned (00:08, 18:27).
- Introverts can be great leaders and public speakers by leveraging their strengths and practicing in safe environments. Storytelling and preparation are central to effective presentations (32:21, 37:05).
- Leaders should foster inclusivity by accommodating both introverts and extroverts—for example, sending agendas ahead of meetings, creating smaller group opportunities, and encouraging all voices (22:14, 23:00).
- It’s a myth that introverts don’t like people; Kendra McDonald enjoys deep connections, just not constant socializing or chitchat (16:03, 17:01).
Make Changes Now
Immediate Actions You Can Take After This Episode
- Embrace Preparation as a Strength
Take time before your next meeting or presentation to prepare your key points and anticipate questions. Kendra McDonald emphasizes that confidence comes from being well-prepared and thinking through possible scenarios before engaging with others. - Communicate Your Needs
Let colleagues and leaders know how you operate best. If you need time to reflect before sharing your thoughts, or prefer receiving agendas in advance, communicate this openly as Kendra McDonald suggests both in board settings and team environments. - Experiment With Small Talk Strategies
Practice breaking into group conversations using Kendra McDonald’s tips—choose groups of three or more, and prepare a set of versatile questions that go beyond basic small talk (“work, family, interests—past, present, future”). This can make networking more comfortable and effective. - Recognize and Manage Stress Triggers
Notice when your instinct under pressure is to withdraw, and instead, make a conscious effort to communicate more with your team, as Kendra McDonald realized is vital for effective leadership and team morale. - Try Reflective Leadership
After meetings or presentations, take a few minutes to reflect on what went well and what could be improved. Use this reflection to set concrete goals for your next opportunity. As both Kendra McDonald and David Hall discuss, continual self-review helps you grow in confidence and effectiveness.
Final Thoughts: The World Needs All Kinds of Leaders
As we wrapped up, Kendra shared a powerful reminder: in a rapidly-changing world, complex challenges require a diversity of perspectives and leadership styles. The thoughtful, inclusive, and strategic approach that introverts bring is more valuable than ever. Don’t let old myths hold you back—embrace your strengths, push your boundaries, and step up as the leader your team, your industry, and the world needs.
Whether you’re reflecting in solitude, building relationships one conversation at a time, or leading bold new projects, remember: quiet can be strong, and your leadership matters.
Ready to learn more about Kendra’s work in the ocean economy? Check out her work at Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, her personal blog, and connect with her on LinkedIn. And if you’re new to the podcast, subscribe for more empowering conversations about embracing introversion and unlocking your leadership potential.
Be strong!
Contacts and Links
Kendra MacDonald is the CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, where she leads a national cluster accelerating ocean innovation and positioning Canada as a global leader in the sustainable blue economy. Kendra has played a pivotal role building the OSC from the ground up – harnessing Canada’s ocean advantage to solve global challenges and unlock economic opportunity. Under her leadership and with a dedicated team, the OSC has committed to over 170 projects, contributed to the creation of thousands of jobs, and helped launch over 200 ocean companies, fostering unprecedented collaboration across regions, sectors and communities.
Connect with Kendra: Website | LinkedIn
Learn more about Kendra’s work with Canada’s Ocean Supercluster
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Timestamped Overview
00:00 Kendra McDonald, CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, has led the organization to initiate over 170 projects, create thousands of jobs, and launch over 200 ocean companies, fostering collaboration and positioning Canada as a leader in the sustainable blue economy, with her introverted leadership style shaping her approach to relationships and change.
04:35 The speaker reflects on their childhood shyness and the misconception that they were introverted, later realizing through leadership programming and understanding personality concepts like introversion and sensory preferences that their behavior aligned with being an introvert.
07:36 The speaker reflects on the transition from phone calls to emails and texting, highlighting how these changes facilitate preparation and reduce discomfort in communication by allowing time to think and understand context before engaging.
10:59 The speaker discusses balancing their need for preparation with their perfectionist tendencies, highlighting their comfort with discussing familiar topics like ocean and introversion without extensive prep, but acknowledging the need for more preparation when delving into specific projects or deeper topics.
16:19 The speaker contrasts their need for intimate, deep conversations with their partner’s preference for prolonged social interactions, describing how large social gatherings deplete their energy despite their global engagements.
19:26 The section discusses how innovation work is built on diversity of perspectives, emphasizing the need for leaders to create environments that allow both introverted and extroverted team members to contribute, using technology and finding champions to ensure everyone’s input is heard and valued.
22:51 The section discusses strategies for creating inclusive environments in networking, acknowledging the challenges introverts face in social interactions and the importance of catering to different personality types.
25:13 The discussion focused on the dynamics of joining conversations, suggesting it’s easier to integrate into groups of three or more and offering a framework of nine conversational topics centered on work, family, and interests across past, present, and future.
29:38 The speaker discusses the challenge of adding value by being a connector rather than the preparer, emphasizing the need to become comfortable with imperfect preparation and trusting others’ readiness, while finding the right balance in preparation for presentations.
30:24 The speaker discusses balancing the need for preparation with repetitive tasks, handling nerves during presentations, managing stress responses as a leader, and emphasizing the importance of communication and transparency.
36:57 The section discusses the importance of practicing leadership and communication skills in safe, small-scale environments to build confidence and effectiveness, emphasizing the gradual involvement in activities like being a band president or participating in church, which provide opportunities to present and receive feedback.
38:12 The section discusses the importance of identifying necessary skills for leadership, such as public speaking and persuasive communication, and learning to develop and balance these skills without exhausting oneself.
42:24 The speaker emphasizes the importance of diverse leadership styles, particularly introverted leaders, in addressing complex challenges such as those faced by the ocean economy, including warming oceans and biodiversity loss.
Podcast Transcript
Kendra McDonald [00:00:00]:
So one of the things I’ve had to learn is under pressure, my natural state will be to go by myself, head down, and get things done. And so that has been a challenge of this role is that when I feel the most like not communicating, that is actually the time where I need to communicate the most. So that’s been sort of an unnatural mismatch with what I would do naturally under stress and what I need to do to be able to manage the team and have them not sort of feeding off of my stress.
David Hall [00:00:39]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 296 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall, the creator of quietandstrong.com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts along with strategies for success. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced. Normally we all air each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a review or a rating. That would mean a lot to me and help others find the show. Tell a friend about the podcast and help get the word out there that introversion is a beautiful thing.
David Hall [00:01:14]:
Kendra McDonald is the CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, where she leads a national cluster accelerating ocean innovation. And positioning Canada as a global leader in the sustainable blue economy. Kendra has played a pivotal role building the OSC from the ground up, harnessing Canada’s ocean advantage to solve global challenges and unlock economic opportunity. Under her leadership, with a dedicated team, the OSC is committed to over 170 projects contributed to the creation of thousands of jobs, and helped launch over 200 ocean companies, fostering unprecedented collaboration across regions, sectors, and communities. In our conversation today, we’ll explore how Kendra’s strengths as an introverted leader have shaped her approach to building relationships, bringing people together around shared purpose, and leading meaningful change. All right. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Kendra. Kendra, it’s so good to have you on today.
Kendra McDonald [00:02:20]:
I’m thrilled to be here.
David Hall [00:02:22]:
So you’ve done some writing about introversion. You had an article in Forbes about introverted leadership. We are going to get into that, but let’s start with a little bit about you. Tell us about yourself and the journey to what you’re doing now.
Kendra McDonald [00:02:34]:
Yeah, so I’m actually an accountant by background. I’m a, I’m a CPA. I got into accounting actually because I wanted to be or I imagined being a bookkeeper. So my image of accounting was probably one of those old cartoon characters where they’re sitting at a desk and they’re surrounded by paper and they’re not talking to people. That was kind of my original idea. And then I got into accounting and I worked with an accounting firm and all of a sudden I was meeting new people every day and I was out at different client sites and I overall enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the learning and the variety. But it made me sort of rethink how I wanted to spend my time.
Kendra McDonald [00:03:14]:
And so anyway, so I worked, I got involved with technology clients, particularly telecom clients. And I started in Ottawa. I had the opportunity to work around the world with telecom clients. So I worked in Australia and Hong Kong and Montreal. And then I came out to St. John’s, Newfoundland, which is east coast of Canada, to run what’s our risk advisory practice. And I continued to be involved with technology and process, and through that got involved with Deloitte’s Innovation Council, really helping companies understand the power of technology. And that took me to the opportunity to bring the power of technology into the ocean economy.
Kendra McDonald [00:03:57]:
So for the last 8 years, I’ve been the CEO of Canada’s Ocean Supercluster, and our job is really to grow the ocean economy for Canada, but through investing in— co-investing in technology commercialization and innovation projects. So it’s something that I really enjoy. And I learned over time that I really enjoy building things. So I had the opportunity to build different practices throughout the world with Deloitte and now the opportunity to build the Ocean Supercluster. So that’s a little bit about me.
David Hall [00:04:23]:
All right. Wow. Thank you. And of course, you are a fellow introvert, and that’s some of what you want to talk about today. When did you figure out you were an introvert?
Kendra McDonald [00:04:35]:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think as a kid I would have been shy, right, in terms of not the loudest voice in the room. I used to blush really easily. And so I realized, and that’s where the, I’m going to be an accountant that sits in the room with the papers and just be away from people so I don’t embarrass myself and I’m not in uncomfortable situations. And then I think I learned that it wasn’t really shy. It was just how I got my energy, how I drained my energy, how I showed up really linked to— I was lucky in terms of doing some different leadership programming, this concept of introvert versus extrovert, also the concept of hearing people versus vision, vision versus audio people. And so I started to look at like, does that fit with me? And realized, yeah, it really did. I, I How I got my energy, how I showed up, how I jumped into conversation really aligned with, you know, this definition of an introvert.
David Hall [00:05:41]:
Okay. And did you have to learn to embrace it once you figured out you were an introvert?
Kendra McDonald [00:05:47]:
So when I came into this role, so I came into this role as a co-op student. I’m sorry, not into this role. I, when I started my career as a co-op student, I realized I was going to be dealing with people. I sort of thought I needed to build 3 skills. So one of them was talking on the phone. So this was back in the, not to date me, but the pre-email days. So you actually—
David Hall [00:06:07]:
Yeah.
Kendra McDonald [00:06:09]:
To this day, I do not enjoy making a phone call. I just, I don’t know what it is. I just think the person on the other end is just going to say no, whether it’s ordering a pizza, whether it’s booking a haircut. I just don’t like making phone calls. But I really forced myself early in my career to make every single phone call so that I got In the habit of what did I need to prepare in advance? How much preparation did I need to do? Who was I talking to? How did I get more comfortable? So that was sort of one. The second one was standing up in front of the room and presenting. So as a kid in grade 5 or 6, I got up and I was doing a school competition, presentation competition, and the teacher said to my mom, it’s the quietest the school has ever been. because I didn’t carry my voice, I didn’t project my voice.
Kendra McDonald [00:06:59]:
And so that was a thing that I needed to get better at because to be able to develop in my career, I needed to be able to present and I needed to be able to exude confidence. So I worked hard at that. The third was as an accountant, I felt like I needed to golf. I will say that skill I have not developed.
David Hall [00:07:15]:
Okay, okay.
Kendra McDonald [00:07:16]:
I find it long. I tried, I did all this different programming. I did not get the golf, but I did spend a lot of time on the presentation and the phone calls. But I will say email was a gift to me ’cause it allowed me to communicate differently. And it allowed me to prepare much more my communication. So I wasn’t so much on the fly. So yeah.
David Hall [00:07:36]:
Yeah, I lived through that transition to, you know, phone call to email, and then texting came on, came around later. And, you know, I think, you know, I’ve given this a lot of thought. And I think it’s, we pause before we speak. And sometimes that can be really uncomfortable on the phone, you know, and not being able to read the other person’s body language, not them not being able to read yours. You know, we need to think and prepare, or maybe, maybe we don’t know what the phone call is about and we really would like to prepare ahead of time. So there’s different reasons, but again, we can definitely figure those things out. Email and texting is really nice. And sometimes, you know, well, it’s very common now to text before you call, which can really help us prepare for things.
David Hall [00:08:28]:
So that’s, that’s definitely something I think a lot of introverts have struggled with.
Kendra McDonald [00:08:33]:
Well, I mean, the voicemail that I like frustrates me the most is, can you just give me a call? I just— give me a topic, give me an idea, give me a situation, help me understand. Don’t just say, just give me a call, but—
David Hall [00:08:49]:
Right. Right. Yeah. We like to know what it’s about so we can prepare if we need to. We don’t always need to prepare, but sometimes we do.
Kendra McDonald [00:08:56]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:08:58]:
I think we’ll get into the public speaking, but also just what have you discovered is a strength that you have because you’re an introvert?
Kendra McDonald [00:09:05]:
Yeah. So I think, you know, you take different courses on how uncomfortable people are with silence. So if you just sit in silence, someone will fill the silence. I am not as uncomfortable in silence. So to your point, right, in terms of we take a moment and we pause and we think before we speak. And so I think early in my career, that was perceived to be a lack of confidence or a lack of willingness to speak up. But I think we have— there’s a lot of thoughtfulness to our speaking. So one of my skills is listening, right? So I tend to listen longer.
Kendra McDonald [00:09:41]:
I don’t tend to just repeat for the sake of repeating. I really focus on trying to add something new to the conversation. I think I’m probably more reflective, so I spend a lot of time sort of absorbing and trying to think through how all the pieces fit together. And then preparation— I spend a lot of time— part of my confidence comes from feeling well prepared, so I think that I do That is a skill in terms of thinking through what I’m going into. And I mentioned my background also is in risk management. So thinking through what can go well, but also what might go wrong, and then how do you prepare for some of those scenarios?
David Hall [00:10:20]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you said that you get confidence from preparation because that is so true. And I think it’s more the things that we maybe are not so familiar with that we might need to prepare for. Like if you just told me you wanted to, if you had a podcast and you wanted me to talk about introversion for 45 minutes, I would like to prepare, but I would do fine. And I’m sure there’s so many topics you, you could do without preparing for, but it’s those things that we need to think about. We might need to gather some more information where that really can be key for us is, is preparing. And yeah.
Kendra McDonald [00:10:59]:
Yeah, I think, I mean, you get better at like through the core messages. So for you, you’re speaking about introversion a lot more. I speak about ocean a lot more. So there’s some, I mean, I can probably get through 10 or 15 minutes of the basics without having to do a lot of preparation. Then if you take me into a deeper silo in a particular area, or people are trying to dig into particular projects, then I will spend more time. I have learned not only do I like to prepare? I am a perfectionist. And so trying to find the balance of good enough. So how prepared do I need to be before I can go into the room so that I don’t paralyze myself with the perfect amount of preparation and also getting more comfortable with the fact that I can’t prepare for everything.
Kendra McDonald [00:11:44]:
And I think over time and with more experience, you get more comfortable in uncertainty, but that was certainly earlier in my career. I really liked to be sort of 100% prepared.
David Hall [00:11:55]:
Yeah.
Kendra McDonald [00:11:56]:
was not manageable as I got sort of more senior and had more things to deal with.
David Hall [00:12:02]:
Yeah, absolutely. So well said. And we can do our best preparation, right? And if you were— if we were going to have a conversation about your work with the ocean, I would need to prepare. I probably would not never be able to prepare well enough. But, and that’s the other thing, if you prepare your best and then you still need some time to think, You just gotta learn to ask, you know, hey, you know, that’s a great question. Let me get back to you on that and come up with a timeline. Cause you know, I don’t know about you, but I can definitely overthink sometimes. Come up with a timeline.
David Hall [00:12:35]:
I’ll get back to you by, and that kind of thing.
Kendra McDonald [00:12:38]:
Yeah. I mean, I think that it’s okay not to have the answer and sometimes, and not to pick on extroverts, but sometimes they will jump in with an answer. And whereas I think that I would be more likely to say, like, let’s get back to you, or I need some time to think about that. Or so my brother was an extra— it was— is an extrovert.
David Hall [00:12:59]:
Yeah.
Kendra McDonald [00:13:00]:
And I am an introvert, although I would question that based on, you know, some of how he does things now. But certainly as kids, he was the extrovert. I was the introvert. Yeah.
David Hall [00:13:07]:
Right.
Kendra McDonald [00:13:07]:
And my dad used to say, the worst thing for you, my brother, would be to be in a meeting with you, me, because I would be so prepared and he would be speaking off the top of his head. And so When it got into the details, he was unable to kind of be a match. Now that has changed significantly. He gets much more prepared, but that was an example of how those two, you’re, you’re trying to fill the space with maybe not full information. Whereas I was the opposite. I had so much information and spent so much time walking into any discussion.
David Hall [00:13:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes we just need a moment and I’ve learned to say that thinking, Give me a moment. And because people can get really uncomfortable. And the thing, a difference with introverts and extroverts is we’re thinking and we’re going to share just what we think is most important. And extroverts are generally going to share most everything. And that’s just a style difference. It’s, it’s not, we’re naturally wired that way.
David Hall [00:14:09]:
And, but people still don’t understand that. And some people rush to fill the silence. Even introverts sometimes rush to fill the silence. It’s like, no, we’re just thinking it’s, it’s OK.
Kendra McDonald [00:14:18]:
Yeah, I do a fair amount of board work. And so that has been the challenge is to find the balance of when you’ve got a big board and lots of people are sharing ideas. I typically don’t voice an idea unless it hasn’t been shared already. And so that can come across as not as engaged or not as prepared or— and so how do you find the balance of being able to affirm someone else’s idea or speak up in some way without, you know, being disingenuous to how you would engage in the conversation. So that also has been a learning over time.
David Hall [00:14:54]:
Yeah. Because sometimes we’re just thinking, our minds are observing, picking up on things other people aren’t, and we can perceive it, be perceived as not engaged or not interested. And so we definitely need to speak up early. And I think over time, And I’m sure this is the case for you. You probably have a reputation. People know you’re going to share things. People that know you know that you’ve got some great ideas and you may not be talking nonstop. And we can build those kinds of reputations where, okay, David’s going to have something to say here, you know, and when people first get to know you, they may not know that.
Kendra McDonald [00:15:33]:
100%. I mean, best compliment I got was, you know, she doesn’t say a lot, but when she says something, you need to listen.
David Hall [00:15:40]:
So yeah, longer story, but that’s the name of this podcast for that exact thing. Someone told me that, someone told me that about myself and they said you, I was quiet and strong. So that’s the name of the podcast.
Kendra McDonald [00:15:52]:
Right.
David Hall [00:15:54]:
And also Kendra, we bust myths on this show. We may have busted some already, but what’s another myth you want to bust about introversion today?
Kendra McDonald [00:16:03]:
One of the key ones is that I don’t like people. So I have this conversation probably regularly with my husband. My husband also is a, is an extrovert. And so we go out and he never wants to leave because he’s just feeding off of the energy in the room.
David Hall [00:16:19]:
Yeah.
Kendra McDonald [00:16:19]:
And I am the exact opposite, right? So he goes up over time and I drain over time. And so when we’re getting ready to leave, I’m always the party pooper that is dragging him out of, out of the activity. And so it’s like, you know, you don’t necessarily like being around people. It’s not that, I just don’t like to be around all of them at the same time. And so I much, much prefer sort of more intimate, deeper conversations. But I mean, I have, my world is meeting new people and engaging all over the world. And so I do, it’s just, I really, I like the deeper connections. The 2 or 3 hours of just chitchat over and over again is not what is, what builds up my energy.
Kendra McDonald [00:17:01]:
But I think there’s this perception that we just, introverts want to be by themselves. Not that we want to be by ourselves, it’s just. how we engage and how we recharge and what that looks like is different.
David Hall [00:17:11]:
Yeah. And you have a husband, so you like at least one person, right?
Kendra McDonald [00:17:16]:
Most of the time.
David Hall [00:17:19]:
And you know, it’s, it’s so crazy because, because we don’t want to interact in the same way that perception comes out and you described it beautifully. It’s like, you know, I was on somebody’s show recently. And I said, you know, what, what do you like to do? And he said he was a cyclist and, you know, he actually went for long rides, you know, maybe 5 hours at a time, but I’m like, but you don’t want to do it for 24 hours, do you? You know, there’s a limit. And we also, like you said, we want to go deep.
Kendra McDonald [00:17:52]:
Mm-hmm.
David Hall [00:17:53]:
So we don’t want endless chitchat and extroverts want to go deep too, but they also don’t mind the endless chitchat and And that kind of thing. So we absolutely love people, but we want to go deep with them. We do need some space. And part of it’s for recharge. Part of it’s just for doing other things solitary that we need to get some work done, to focus, to plan, to be strategic, all that good stuff.
Kendra McDonald [00:18:17]:
Yeah, I mean, I will say under— so one of the things I’ve had to learn is under pressure, my natural state will be to go by myself, head down, and get things done. And so that has been a challenge of this role is that it, when I feel the most like not communicating, that is actually the time where I need to communicate the most. So that’s been sort of an unnatural mismatch with what I would do naturally under stress and what I need to do to be able to manage the team and have them not sort of feeding off of my stress.
David Hall [00:18:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and that’s, that’s key for leadership and we’re definitely going to get into leadership is, you know, as introverts, we have a lot going on inside our heads and our team might not see it. And so we definitely need to share that. You still need to take the time you need to focus and think and all that good stuff, but you need to share what’s going on with your team. And because they don’t always know, we can’t just say, oh, they know, because they don’t always— they can’t read what’s— they’re— nobody’s a mind reader, right? No. So tell us about your article in Forbes.
Kendra McDonald [00:19:26]:
Yeah, I mean, I think overall it was built on the premise of So one of the things with the work that I do in innovation is making sure that you’re bringing diversity of perspectives. And so how do you create different environments so that you can hear from everyone? And so it was almost, it was intended to be sort of for leaders with teams with introverts. So yes, I’m an introverted leader, but I also want extroverted leaders to think about the potential and the capacity that could be sitting on their team that they’re not necessarily tapping into as leaders. So it was from 2 angles. What do I do as an introvert to help me be successful in terms of being able to recharge? Also finding champions. So I was lucky throughout my career that I would work with people that knew to ask me and to pull me into the conversation. But also for leaders to think about, as you’re looking around the room, are you making sure that you’re hearing from everybody? We would do work with some of the innovation workshops that we would do, we’d use technology. And so technology would allow people to be able to— everyone got to input.
Kendra McDonald [00:20:38]:
And now you’re not giving, you know, natural priority to the loudest voice or the person that’s talking to the most. Now you are truly ranking the ideas because you’ve sort of flattened where they are coming from or the charisma with which the idea is put on the table. And so that was really the The idea is, is one, we need all leaders. 2, how do you, as an introverted leader, be a leader, but also take care of yourself? And then 3, how do you, as leading a team that’s probably got some introverts on there, pull out the best from them so that you’re getting the best from the entire team?
David Hall [00:21:19]:
Yeah, absolutely. And so I know we both agree that introverts can be amazing leaders.
Kendra McDonald [00:21:24]:
Absolutely.
David Hall [00:21:25]:
And just, uh, so can extroverts, but yes, introverts can be amazing. Oh yeah, of course. Every, every, what we’re saying is everybody can be an amazing leader. Exactly. Absolutely. But you need to get to know yourself, where your strengths lie and what you need to be a great leader. So I think you brought up such a good point. Our teams so likely are gonna be made up of introverts and extroverts.
David Hall [00:21:48]:
That’s, you know, just, that’s, that’s gonna be the most common thing. So how do leaders work with teams made up of introverts and extroverts?
Kendra McDonald [00:21:59]:
Yeah, I mean, I think that we are working with teams that have such diversity of skill sets. So introvert-extrovert is only one dimension. So, so part of this is just really understanding the individual and what they need. But certainly for our team, we’ve spent a lot of time talking about sending out an agenda, even though you can walk into a meeting with no agenda. And I have gotten much better at being able to walk into a meeting with no agenda. It’s not my preferred space. And so, you know, we try to make sure that we are providing those that need more time to be able to think and prepare that time. How do we give also people the opportunity to share when they are uncomfortable or they need something different? We also think about even when we are doing our various social activities is not every social activity is putting all the team together.
Kendra McDonald [00:22:51]:
It’s how do you create moments where you are in smaller teams that would you know, be naturally more comfortable with our introverts than our extroverts. I remember doing a networking— I did networking training and it was teaching you how to break into a conversation. And we did a whole sort of day on exercises of how to break into conversation, you know, approach a group of 3, don’t approach a group of 2, ’cause that will be easier. Have your sports information, have your weather information. Like what are all the topics? And still I couldn’t break into a conversation. It’s just, I do not enjoy— Do not enjoy breaking into a conversation. So again, we try to create these different environments where, you know, it, it’s, it, you will not, you will not enjoy everything, but hopefully you will enjoy something because we’re trying to cater to all different types of, of personalities as best we can.
David Hall [00:23:45]:
Yeah. And I think, I think that’s key as well. It’s like, we can try and design things for, you know, most people. So as an introvert, you could also advocate for things that are more introvert-friendly, but at the same time, you know, like maybe it comes to networking, you can learn to do the small talk and do the things that you need to do, but you can also follow your goals and they may not be the same as the extroverted colleague. You know, I know an extroverted colleague that’s going to want to meet every single person if she could. And I’m going to want to have some key conversations and, and it’s just a difference in, you know, how we operate. And neither is good or bad.
Kendra McDonald [00:24:34]:
Right. I can operate in discomfort for a period of time also. Right. So if you put me in a room full of people and I need to, you know, make idle chitchat, I do that quite a bit. But how I recover from that and how I recharge from that and how long I can do that for looks very different maybe than someone else that enjoys that. More than, more than I do. And not to say like any room full of people now, especially with the role that I have, I am connecting with people that I know and it’s very different, but that gets built up over time also.
David Hall [00:25:07]:
Yeah. Have you learned any strategies for making small talk as an introvert?
Kendra McDonald [00:25:13]:
I mean, the, the one around breaking into a group of 3 versus a group of 2 is a tried and true. I really do. I find that 2 people tend to be in a much deeper conversation, so it’s very hard to break into that. If you are 3 or more, then chances are it’s a more welcoming circle that you can then break into. And then also, if there’s 3 or 4, you don’t immediately have to contribute something because there’s enough people that are already talking. You can take a little bit more time to actually listen to the conversation and absorb, and then throw something in that is meaningful versus just sort of going up and saying, how’d you find the weather today? Or what did you think of that session? The other thing that I’ve found very helpful, I think it’s a, it’s a 9 boxes. And so it is work, family, interests, past, present, future. And so it gives you this chart of, let me ask you about what used to interest you, what interests you today, what you’d love to be doing.
Kendra McDonald [00:26:13]:
Let me ask you what you used to do, what you do today, you know, what you’re interested in doing, and then tell me about your family and where you’re headed. And so I find that just as a set of 9 tried and true questions can get you through a lot of small talk beyond just sort of weather. And I’m not very good at sports, so beyond just weather and sports.
David Hall [00:26:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s something I’ve learned is I don’t want to talk endlessly about the weather, but sometimes I recently did a podcast and said it’s a bridge. It’s a bridge to the conversation you want to have. And you just don’t want to stay there. You don’t want to stay talking about the weather for 3 hours, but if you can get an introvert into a conversation they’re passionate about, you might not be able to stop them from talking.
Kendra McDonald [00:27:04]:
Well, and different places are different, right? So I’ve had the opportunity to work across several cities in Canada. I’ve worked, as I mentioned, internationally as well. And so what constitutes small talk, how much time you spend in small talk. I remember I was in a workshop and there was a person from Asia and he said for him, he’s actually measured on how long he can speak while saying nothing. And that’s actually like a positive thing, whereas I would consider that to be not positive at all. But that was really helpful in terms of how we were having the conversation. And for me to have more of an appreciation for how he was showing up. When I moved here to St.
Kendra McDonald [00:27:48]:
John’s, Newfoundland, I moved here from a much bigger city and I had my first few meetings and people were constantly asking me about like where I’m from and who my parents are and all of these questions for much longer than I had been used to in a bigger city. And I realized I needed to actually slow down and calibrate. And that was a really important part of connecting to the person before we moved into business, whereas I had been used to don’t Don’t waste my time with all that idle chitchat. Let’s get right down to business. So it’s really understanding your audience and then being able to calibrate how you bring that conversation and that chitchat.
David Hall [00:28:26]:
Yeah, some people need to warm up. You know, as you know people, you might find people that you do just get down to business and it’s nice. You both appreciate it, but it just depends. Most of the time we need to warm up a little bit before we get into the deeper things we want to talk about.
Kendra McDonald [00:28:44]:
Yeah.
David Hall [00:28:45]:
Kendra, what else have you learned about leadership, like, in your journey? Like, you know, where did you struggle and how did you find how to be an effective leader yourself?
Kendra McDonald [00:28:54]:
Yeah, I mean, I, I, uh, I mentioned a little bit in terms of, so, preparation and perfectionism. And so as you develop, you’re often So I was an accountant by background. So technical expert first. And so coming into the room as the technical expert, your job is to be prepared, right? You, that is your job. And so that fit very well with me as an introvert. Be prepared, provide the information, have time to have the information, having the right information. But then as you develop as a leader, your technical competency becomes much less relevant. In fact, often you are bringing the technical expert into the room and creating the space for them to be able to share their technical expertise.
Kendra McDonald [00:29:38]:
And so I had to— that was a lot of work for me to see how do I add value in that place where I am the connector. I am not the one that is doing necessarily the detailed preparation. I need to be more comfortable with that discomfort. I need to be more comfortable with imperfect preparation. I need to be more comfortable with trusting that this other person is prepared with the information. And that continues to be, I would say, finding that right balance of the preparation that I need walking into the room versus the fact that I am not the one that is doing that technical preparation. So that is certainly one that I continue. I do a lot of presentations.
Kendra McDonald [00:30:24]:
So again, I don’t have all the time that I used to have, the volume of presentations versus the Availability of time has shifted. And so to your point that you mentioned earlier is how do you get comfortable with the things that you can do over and over again with little preparation versus those things that you really need to be able to spend the time on? I still do get nervous in front of almost any room. And so I need a level of preparation to help me work through those nerves as I walk in. And then the third one, as we touched on, is being able to recognize that my natural state in stress is to get quiet and get things done and dig my way out. But as a leader, people are watching you and they’re watching that behavior and they’re watching for the signals. And so, letting people know how I’m feeling, what I’m doing, where we are, and almost overcommunicating when my natural tendency would be not to communicate at all. And maybe the other one, and I mentioned this a little bit with boards, but is also helping people understand. I think I touched on this in the article, is letting people know.
Kendra McDonald [00:31:37]:
So letting your— when I come onto a new board and say, like, I’m, I am, you know, quiet but mighty, or quiet but strong. And so, you know, feel free to reach out to me, or I will let you know, or call upon me so that they are able to create a more comfortable environment for you to be able to, to be able to contribute.
David Hall [00:32:00]:
Yeah, absolutely. So we’ll bust another myth here. Some people think that introverts can’t be great public speakers, but they absolutely can. I love speaking. I don’t get nervous anymore because I understand myself and what I need, which has been pretty amazing. What have you learned about giving a great speech?
Kendra McDonald [00:32:21]:
Yeah. So I, uh, so one of the great things, so As an accountant and with my more technical background, presentations early in my career were, it was almost like we were getting paid by the slide. So they were dense slides with lots of content that you were rolling through that was meant to be sort of a takeaway of information. And then when I started working in innovation, I had the opportunity to work with the leader of our innovation group, and he was giving presentations that hardly had any words on them. And they had lots more images and lots more storytelling. And I think that is the power of a really good presentation. It is the storytelling. It is not forcing people to be sitting there and reading all of the slides.
Kendra McDonald [00:33:09]:
And especially now where we can get, whether it is a TED Talk or you can watch it on YouTube, or if someone is just going to talk at you with a a lot of dense content that’s not highly personalized, then you can get that content in another way. So a really powerful presentation is about the storytelling, about the personal examples, about having it, helping it to be live. And I really, I drive my team sometimes a little bit crazy getting the words off the slide. Like, and so that’s the balance of, you don’t have the words on the slide, then you can’t read your slides. And so back to preparation, you have to be very prepared to be able to present that, present that content. But I think the storytelling is making it alive and energy. So that is the one thing, again, as an introvert, I won’t— I’m not always naturally the most energetic. And so I really have to pump myself up to get onto the stage and bring the energy and the passion to the story that I’m telling.
David Hall [00:34:13]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve had those conversations recently, like there’s too many words on that slide. And, you know, we’ve had some storytelling experts on the show and, you know, they’ve all said that introverts can be great storytellers. And I know for me, I’m never going to script out my speech, but I’m going to think about what stories do I want to tell? And I’ll, you know, I’ll have an outline and I’ll think about, you know, what kinds of things can be powerful or what images can be powerful. But I know that as an introvert, I need to do more advanced preparation than maybe an extrovert. Not that extroverts, they prepare too, of course, of course. But it, it, it looks a little bit different.
Kendra McDonald [00:34:58]:
Yeah. And I also speak in French. So when I speak in French, I need to do even more preparation because in English, if I veer off of my story or I tell it a little bit differently, I’m okay. But in French, if I get too far off of my script, then I get into language I haven’t prepared and I don’t necessarily necessarily remember the translation for. So there’s even more work that goes into a presentation or more preparation that goes into a presentation in French so that I have that additional vocabulary comfort that I don’t get myself lost.
David Hall [00:35:29]:
Yeah, yeah. And again, you got to know what you need. I, I can’t speak to that whatsoever, but what do you need as an introvert? You know, are you speaking a second language to give a presentation, and what does that mean for you? So all of that’s so important. What do you need? And some people do script things out, and it’s just, it just Depends, you know, and you got to think, okay, how am I going to give the best, most impactful speech? What can I do to do that? It definitely needs to involve some story.
Kendra McDonald [00:35:57]:
Well, I mean, as an example, so as I worked more with IT professionals, there’s often— not to put a broad brush across all IT professionals, but there are a number of them that are introverts. And I remember a colleague of mine, and he was going into a phone call, and he scripted the entire phone call. And I thought, okay, well, maybe I’m comfortable with phone calls than I thought, right? Because I’m no longer at the point where I need to script the entire thing. And so again, an example of there’s a whole spectrum of preparation and finding what works for you. And then that will probably evolve over time because you will get more comfortable and get more comfortable with the uncertainty. But I do remember that and thinking, okay, you know, maybe I’m not terrible, but I still don’t like them.
David Hall [00:36:39]:
Okay. And back to leadership. Let’s say someone wants to be a leader. In your example, you know, maybe they are an accountant and they want to progress into leadership roles. What advice do you give the introverted person that wants to grow into leadership?
Kendra McDonald [00:36:57]:
Yeah, I mean, I think what worked for me is, I think I touched on this a little bit in, in my article as well, but how do you practice in safe environments? So you don’t have to throw yourself completely into an uncomfortable situation at the very beginning. And so I really started small even when I was in high school in terms of getting involved with various activities. I was, you know, band president. I was involved in my church and had the opportunity to stand up and speak. And so, you know, how do you create these opportunities for you to embrace some of the discomfort of these skills? And not to say that all leaders have to be great presenters, but But most of the time when you are a leader, you are having to present something, whether it’s motivating your team or whether it’s convincing others of what it is that your idea, it doesn’t necessarily have to be in front of a stage of hundreds of people, but you are having to effectively communicate. And so how do you practice those skills and how do you look for opportunities that are safe? Same thing when I first started getting involved on boards, you know, I had a much smaller role, but I got to practice, practice the muscle. And as you practice that muscle, you get more and more comfortable. Also asking for feedback, you know, what worked, what didn’t work.
Kendra McDonald [00:38:12]:
There are also— I didn’t get involved with them just the way that my career worked, but you can get involved in various groups that allow you to practice some of those skills as well. You know, it used to be Toastmasters that you could go and you could practice your presentation skills and develop those things. But I think part of it is really thinking through what What type of leader do you want to be, or what do you want to be involved in? Because that was for me, right? So I looked around my colleagues when I first started as a co-op student, and I said, what are some of these skills that I need? And certainly being able to pick up the phone and call a client and make a persuasive argument was something I needed to be able to do, and being able to get in front of a room also and do presentations because we had proposals, that was also a skill. And so those were the things I picked, the things that probably made me the least comfortable And I learned both how to do them, but also how to do them in a way that I wasn’t constantly draining my energy. So finding the balance of doing those things. And so that’s it, baby steps, practicing, testing, learning what works for you. What does recharging look like? What point do you hit the wall? I have a much better sense now of, you know, I’ve pushed myself too long, too hard, too far. The wall is here.
Kendra McDonald [00:39:22]:
Whereas I used to hit the wall. And then recognize that I needed to step back. And so, yep, just give it a try. I think we, we picture leaders as like this massive thing, whereas there’s just opportunities to lead everywhere, every day, all the time. And so it’s leaning into those.
David Hall [00:39:42]:
Yeah, start, right? It’s just volunteer. So I think about this podcast and, you know, Long before I started this podcast, I did find ways to give a presentation. Maybe, you know, maybe nobody else wanted to, or I found a way to run a webinar or something. And you just, you do get more comfortable. And then, you know, I was very comfortable when I started the podcast, but I will tell you, I am so much, I feel like I’m so much better than I was 5 years ago, you know, for episode 1. You just get more comfortable. You figure out more things of how to prepare and how, you know, and that type of thing. So I love that.
David Hall [00:40:26]:
You just, like you said, you gotta start somewhere. But I’ll tell you, the introverts, I think there’s an advantage that we have. We’re very reflective. So we start and we can think, how did that go? And I always like to tell myself what went well first. You know that, you know, you did really good here. Next time I’m gonna try this. There’s so many different gifts we have. We’re not all the same.
David Hall [00:40:46]:
You know, and I focus on introversion, extroversion, because I think there’s still so much misunderstanding in all the things that we’ve talked about. But I think that we do all share the gift of reflection. Like we can think about how something went and just come up with ideas for, to make it better.
Kendra McDonald [00:41:04]:
Well, and I, I think that is part of just starting is you do get better. And so the perfectionism matched with the introversion is that you do it and then you reflect, and I am not good at thinking about the positive first. I am the person that’s like that.
David Hall [00:41:21]:
Okay.
Kendra McDonald [00:41:22]:
I remember one of my clients who said, Kendra, could you just give us some positive feedback before you tell us all the things that are going wrong? So that just, that my mind is, you know, constantly, how do we fix it? How do we, how do we make it better? And so that is a fact. You’re going to, it’s not always gonna go well. You’re not always gonna be as prepared. The audience is not gonna be it. You tell that joke and nobody laughs. And then you look right, you thought it was like a sure thing and nobody laughs. I remember I’d be in a different audience or in a different country and what I thought was funny as a Canadian was not funny in front of that particular audience. So you’re experimenting.
Kendra McDonald [00:41:58]:
And so with experimentation comes failure. And so how do you learn from, or suboptimal, it’s going to call it failure, suboptimization. And how do you not be so hard on yourself that you talk yourself out of taking that next opportunity that will continue to make you better? Absolutely.
David Hall [00:42:16]:
Kendra, we’ve had a wonderful conversation today. So many good pieces of wisdom shared. And what do you want to leave us with?
Kendra McDonald [00:42:24]:
I think the final comment would be that we need all types of leaders. I think we are in a moment in time in the world where the more leaders, the better, and the more perspectives, the better. I work in ocean and I work in the ocean economy. And so the ocean is facing all kinds of both challenges and opportunities. With, you know, warming oceans and, you know, loss of biodiversity and, and a number of the challenges. And so we know that the more complex the problem, the more perspectives that we need. And so having the thoughtfulness and perspectives of the introvert and that style of leadership is so incredibly important in this moment in time. So I would encourage you to push yourself outside your comfort zone and take that step and be the leader that Awesome.
David Hall [00:43:10]:
Well said. And of course, where can people find out more about you?
Kendra McDonald [00:43:15]:
Yeah, absolutely. So you can find more about me, so kennethmacdonald.com. I also have— if you want to learn more about the ocean, I have a Substack where I talk about ocean and the ocean economy. And if you want to learn more about the ocean in Canada, you can look at oceansupercluster.ca or find me on LinkedIn. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Yeah.
David Hall [00:43:34]:
Awesome. Thanks again, Kendra.
Kendra McDonald [00:43:36]:
Thank you.
David Hall [00:43:37]:
Thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate you. I hope you take the time to explore other episodes and learn from other amazing guests. Remember, if you’re interested in getting to know yourself better, there is now a free Typefinder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4-letter Myers-Briggs code. I’ll add a link in the show notes. And I’d love to connect with you. Reach out at [email protected] or check out the quietandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media for Quiet and Strong and much more.
David Hall [00:44:14]:
Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. So many great things about being an introvert, and so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.
David Hall, M.Ed. is a speaker, author, and host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, where he interviews thought leaders, creatives, and professionals who help introverts thrive. With over 25 years in higher education, David has led workshops, trainings, and presentations on productivity, personality, and introversion. His mission is to help introverts honor their needs, understand their strengths, and succeed on their own terms. He is the author of Minding Your Time: Time Management, Productivity, and Success, Especially for Introverts and a passionate advocate for creating work environments where introverts can do their best work.
