Quiet and strong podcast Episode 104 with guest Peter Anthony

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Are you an introvert who hates sales, and are looking for better ways to collaborate with clients and peers? Get ready to take notes as we dive into the magic of building relationships through collaborative communication,

In this episode, David welcomes guest Peter Anthony, author of the book “Collabradabra: The Magic of Collaborative Conversations.” Together, they discuss the concept of collaborative communication and how it can be applied in the workplace as well as in your personal life. Peter shares insights from his book and provides practical tips and strategies to help you improve your relationships through collaborative communication with clients and peers.  This episode is perfect for anyone interested in learning more about how to create successful, non-salesy relationships that lead to more positive outcomes in today’s fast-paced business world.

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Peter Anthony is an author and speaker and has a master’s in professional communication. And all that as an introvert. As an expert in collaboration and commercial relationship development, Peter has run workshops for thousands of people in 12 countries over 20 years. He consults with Fortune 500 companies to help them achieve better smarter outcomes from more effective internal and external relationships. His book Collabradabra highlights the six moments that matter to maximize collaborative outcomes one conversation at a time.

Contact Peter:

Website: PeterAnthonyConsulting.com

Get Peter’s Book: 
Collabradabra: The Magic of Collaborative Conversations

LinkedIn | Youtube | Facebook

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Contact the host of the Quiet and Strong Podcast: 

David Hall

Author, Speaker, Educator, Podcaster



david [at] quietandstrong.com

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Questions and Answers

1. What is the main difference between introverts and extroverts when it comes to their level of optimism?

– Introverts are less optimistic than extroverts.

2. Can optimism be learned or is it innate?

– Optimism is an acquired skill and not innate.

3. What are the three key questions that introverts and extroverts ask when bad events happen or are likely to happen?

– How long will it last, what else gets affected, and who’s in charge?

4. How do introverts tend to view bad events compared to extroverts?

– Introverts tend to think that bad events will last longer, affect more, and they are not in charge.

5. How can introverts become more optimistic in the face of bad events?

– Introverts can limit the impact of bad events, try to shorten the time, and realize they are always in charge of how they think.

6. What is Martin Seligman’s “learned optimism” approach?

– The “learned optimism” approach is a recommended resource for those looking to become more optimistic.

7. What are some of the strengths that introverts have?

– Recharging, deep passion for what they’re doing, surface level expertise, listening skills, and the ability to form deeper relationships.

8. What is the collaborative conversation approach developed by the speaker of the podcast?

– The collaborative conversation approach involves setting a goal or outcome, answering the four primary questions, understanding decision-making criteria, making a recommendation, reaching an agreement, and collaborating in an authentic and optimistic way.

9. Can introverts excel at storytelling in business practice?

– Yes, introverts can excel at storytelling and can use stories instead of PowerPoint in presentations to better engage their audience.

10. Do successful communicators, like Mark Zuckerberg and Meryl Streep, tend to use analogies and stories in their communication?

– Yes, using analogies and stories is a common trait among successful communicators, including introverts.

Timestamped Overview

[00:02:14] Introvert from a young age, began asking questions to learn about people and engage.

[00:08:00] Introverts have deeper relationships, whereas extroverts have more shallow relationships. Elon Musk is an example of a successful introvert.

[00:13:25] Recharging and deep passion for interests leads to clearer thinking and expertise.

[00:20:28] Developed collaborative approach to conversations through workshops, studying communication, and working with introverts.

[00:24:10] Setting goal, listening attentively, leading conversation, asking questions, understanding criteria, avoiding mistakes, making recommendation, reaching agreement.

[00:32:49] Using storytelling instead of PowerPoint decks to make recommendations and pitch ideas to transport listeners and to create trust and collaboration.

[00:34:42] Create a story to help someone get what they want after overcoming obstacles.

[00:38:22] Storytelling is best way to communicate ideas; structure of hero, goal, and why they can’t have it; keep a storytelling journal and practice.

[00:42:02] Great leaders communicate ideas and stories, often using analogies and metaphors.

[00:44:27] Introverts tend to be less optimistic; optimism is an acquired trait, not innate; three questions to ask when bad events happen; limit impact, shorten time, remember you’re in charge of how you think.

Podcast Transcript

00;00;00;01 – 00;00;35;04
Peter Anthony
There’s a great part of Hamlet. Early in the play, there’s a character called Polonius who’s advising his son in sunlight. He’s going overseas. And Polonius quite famously says to ladies, after the end of all this advice, he says this Above all else To thine own self be true. And that was that was the core of the advice. And if I can be arrogant enough to give advice to my fellow introverts, it would be embrace the introversion, follow that passion, have those really deep relationships, and really enjoy the process.

00;00;35;04 – 00;00;44;24
Peter Anthony
And it’s more than okay. It’s the way to live.

00;00;46;12 – 00;01;05;28
David Hall
Hello and welcome to Episode one of four of the Quiet and Strong Podcast, especially for introverts. I’m your host, David Hall, and the creator of Quiet and Strong.com. It’s a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix, but to be embraced normally will air each episode on a Monday.

00;01;06;16 – 00;01;30;12
David Hall
Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review. That would mean a lot to me. Tell a friend about the podcast. Help get the word out there. Peter Anthony is an author and speaker and has a master’s in professional communication and all that is an introvert. As an expert in collaboration and commercial relationship development, Peter has run workshops for thousands of people in 12 countries over 20 years.

00;01;31;07 – 00;01;52;19
David Hall
He consults with Fortune 500 companies to help them achieve better, smarter outcomes for more effective internal and external relationships. His book, Collaborate Dabur, highlights the six moments that matter to maximize collaborative outcomes one conversation at a time. All right. I’m excited for my guest, Peter. Peter, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast.

00;01;53;12 – 00;01;57;00
Peter Anthony
I David and Hello listeners from Sydney, Australia.

00;01;57;15 – 00;02;13;21
David Hall
All right, Peter, we’re going to get into the great work that you do around collaboration and influence, but we’re definitely going to talk about your journey as discovering your introvert. But now you help other people with communication and improving their influence and collaboration. Tell us about that.

00;02;14;21 – 00;02;37;16
Peter Anthony
Yeah, David, I didn’t discover I was an introvert. I knew I was one. I was a boy. I was probably like four or five or six years old. And I used to love to speak in my room reading. I was a huge reader and my mother came from a huge family which had lots of brothers. And on Sunday she’d invite all her brothers or my uncles over with their children.

00;02;37;16 – 00;02;59;24
Peter Anthony
They had big, big families and I just didn’t like being around that many people would be my room ready, my book and my mother was encouraging me constantly to get of my room and talk to my uncles and my cousins and all my family members and sure enough, one day I finally came out and my mum said, Look, just just ask your Uncle Harry some question.

00;02;59;25 – 00;03;20;11
Peter Anthony
Just ask him how he is. Ask him about his his his life as a lumberjack. And I came out of my room. I just ask Harry a question, Michael Harry a question. And he just kept telling me stories for like an hour. And I thought, maybe this is part of the secret sauce. I they all I’ve got to do is I come into my room, if you like, come out of my introversion and just ask questions.

00;03;20;17 – 00;03;43;28
Peter Anthony
And I just found for many years from like when I was five, it was probably in my early teens, I would just when I had to meet people, I would just ask them questions and they would give me answers. So I would learn things. They would like me because I ask questions and they’d rarely ask me a question back, which I really liked because I could just talk about themselves and I could just listen.

00;03;43;28 – 00;03;54;11
Peter Anthony
And I learned things. I met different people and that was the beginning of the journey, if you like, just learning to ask questions. That was the first seed that got signed for me.

00;03;55;21 – 00;04;11;27
David Hall
Okay. So you always knew you were introvert. Were there things over the course of your life that you had to, like, learn to do as an introvert, like the things that you needed or sounds like you learned to connect with people in a good way, but was there other things that you had to learn to be successful as an introvert?

00;04;12;25 – 00;04;31;01
Peter Anthony
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I first met up, I went to I went to university or college, as you call it. And that was easy. Could study is introvert is really easy tractable introvert you are the more you can study. I found that was something you get distracted by, by social events and drinking and all that. All the normal campus activities.

00;04;31;14 – 00;05;01;19
Peter Anthony
And then I got out of college, out of university, and I was in I was in roles where I needed to deal with clients. And I was taught I was taught selling at a fairly early age. And I really didn’t like it at all. It was it felt really structured. It felt really contrived. And what I found was the less I did it, the more the clients engaged with me.

00;05;02;10 – 00;05;25;22
Peter Anthony
So I had to find I had to find a way of of managing those business and client relationships and not use what I was told. Because what I was told them, what I was taught quite strongly was if you want to engage in a client relationship or a business relationship, you need to sell things to people. And I found that that just did not work.

00;05;25;22 – 00;05;28;26
Peter Anthony
In fact, the opposite worked for me.

00;05;28;26 – 00;05;47;28
David Hall
Yeah. So what were those traditional approaches? And probably they’re still used quite widely. Why didn’t they work? And when we’re saying sales, somebody listening might be in a sales role or they might be in any role where there’s still some aspect of selling, so to speak. What did you find wrong with the traditional approaches?

00;05;48;12 – 00;06;13;01
Peter Anthony
Well, what I found wrong was I found firstly, I found it was very contrived and very structured. You had like a structured series of questions to ask. You had particular closing techniques to use. I didn’t like the structure. I didn’t like the fact that it was all about what I wanted or what the company wanted, and what about what the other person may need?

00;06;13;17 – 00;06;48;13
Peter Anthony
And I found that whenever I started selling or making recommendations, they’d be distancing the relationship. I’d feel like people were slipping away, getting cynical with me. And what I was suggesting. And for that, for, for, for quite a while, that was very challenging because that was no matter where you are in an organization, you think, well, you’re selling something to somebody, even if it’s an internal role, you’re selling a service to somebody like you’ve got internal stakeholders potentially, or external customers or internal customers for what you’re doing.

00;06;49;03 – 00;07;23;19
Peter Anthony
And I find that a real struggle. And what I what I found was that the more I understood what that person was looking for and the more I collaborated with them in getting their outcome, I would get more of what I wanted. So I almost turned selling on its head. I did the opposite. Like rather than closing sales, I was opening relationships and I found that took a little bit longer, but it worked better and lasted longer because I was building relationships as opposed to selling a product or service.

00;07;24;04 – 00;07;32;07
Peter Anthony
So that was a huge switch in my mind, if you like. That was probably my early, early twenties, mid-twenties.

00;07;33;04 – 00;07;54;28
David Hall
Definitely. On this show we talk about the strengths and needs of introverts. We talk about some strategies for success, which we’ll get into all that, we also bust some myths and one right there we’re talking about building relationships. Often a myth I hear is introverts don’t like people. And of course, we know that’s kind of silly. We need people, we need connections.

00;07;55;00 – 00;07;58;05
David Hall
How is it different? Building relationships is an introvert.

00;07;59;15 – 00;08;27;27
Peter Anthony
It’s very it’s very different. David, I’ve had the good fortune since then to in my coaching practice, to work a lot on psychometrics and understand the set of traits that make introverts successful and one one huge difference is that introverts like me will tend to have fewer relationships, but they’ll be deeper. Whereas extroverts tend to like, have more relationships, but they’re more shallow.

00;08;28;20 – 00;08;56;29
Peter Anthony
I guess it’s almost the distance a difference between, say a like a an online dating service, which is all about swiping left and swiping right, having like a lot of very shallow relationships to something where you’re interested in having less relationships and making them more meaningful. So I think and that’s definitely a superpower, but a superpower of mine in my business practice, because what I look for is having fewer bigger clients and having closer relationships with them.

00;08;58;09 – 00;09;26;28
Peter Anthony
It also works in my personal life because I don’t like having a hundred friends. I mean, I use, I guess, Facebook friends as a way to stay in contact with people that are that are geographically remote from me. But I like friends. I like less friends. I like less commercial relationships, but deeper. So that’s definitely a strength. And initially I thought that wasn’t great because there is almost like an assumption in the world that to be successful you need to be extroverted.

00;09;28;01 – 00;09;51;13
Peter Anthony
It be out there talking the talk. But in fact I believe the opposite is true. And if you look at the most successful entrepreneur in the world as we speak, that’s Elon Musk. He wrote PayPal with his brother. He started SpaceX six. He started he started Tesla, started the boring company, started Neuralink and just recently purchased on Twitter.

00;09;51;29 – 00;10;03;13
Peter Anthony
He’s likely to be, as we speak, the most successful person in the world in a commercial sense. And he’s a self-confessed introvert. He’s my introvert hero.

00;10;03;13 – 00;10;24;04
David Hall
Yeah. And I would say his success is because he’s a deep thinker. He’s thinking of all these exactly. Ideas, and and it’s because he’s an introvert that he enjoys great success. But as you’re saying, you know, it’s a common thing with introverts. We do have a tighter circle of friends. And sometimes we’re made to feel like there’s something wrong with that, but there absolutely isn’t.

00;10;24;05 – 00;10;33;29
David Hall
We want to go deeper and not have lots of shallow relationships, and we might have lots of acquaintances and things, but we definitely want those deep friendships for sure. And that’s normal, right?

00;10;34;28 – 00;11;01;01
Peter Anthony
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I think it helps to in terms of romantic relationships and parenting, I mean, I’m a I’m a parent of five children, a dad to five children. And I find that having a deeper relationship with them, particularly with with my wife, for example, it makes the relationship more meaningful than having it more shallow. And on the surface, I think right across the board.

00;11;01;01 – 00;11;40;28
Peter Anthony
And if you look at the good positive psychology now, like the work of people like Martin Seligman and others that have built this whole positive psychology genre, their research suggests that the number one marker for happiness in people like self-report of happiness, is the quality and depth of the relationships. So you would expect in that case for the introverts to be happier than the extroverts and I’m careful when I say this, too, because as we as we mentioned earlier, before we jumped on the on the podcast, David, there isn’t like an introvert.

00;11;41;04 – 00;11;53;07
Peter Anthony
There’s different versions of insurance. It’s a it’s a broad group of people. So it’s hard to say, well, this is all introverts are like this because there’s different varieties.

00;11;54;05 – 00;12;16;02
David Hall
Yeah, and that’s the thing. We’re complex as human beings and there’s more to our personalities than introversion extroversion. I happen to do this podcast because I think there’s really significant differences between, you know, general differences between introverts and extroverts that are still very misunderstood. There’s a lot more that we can learn about each other. You mentioned one strength.

00;12;16;02 – 00;12;20;19
David Hall
Is there any other superpowers for yourself or other introverts that you’ve worked with? Yeah.

00;12;20;29 – 00;12;47;15
Peter Anthony
Absolutely. There’s some there’s there’s there’s several superpowers, not the superpower that I alluded to when I talk about asking questions, as the introverts have been listeners, they’re better at asking questions and better at listening to the answers because they pay attention to what’s being said, because they’re more observing. If you look at a classic character trait of an introvert, one of the three big character traits is observing.

00;12;47;15 – 00;13;14;03
Peter Anthony
Like you’re observing what’s happening around, you know, you’re listening to what’s being said. So the great listeners, which makes them great influences, because if you think about what Stephen Covey suggested when he said Seek first to understand before seeking to be understood, introverts understand better so then they can go ahead and make better, better recommendations because they understand the needs of the person that they’re talking to.

00;13;15;01 – 00;13;23;01
Peter Anthony
Introverts like me also are better at recharging. I mean, all have to recharge. After we do this podcast, I have some downtime.

00;13;23;21 – 00;13;24;16
David Hall
To meetings.

00;13;25;18 – 00;13;52;15
Peter Anthony
And that that recharging makes you fresher, makes you clearer. It’s it’s a little like when I travel, I like to collect snow cones. So those little things you shake up with the snow with them, like I’ve got ones from all over the US, little local towns, little state villages. You shake it up and all the snow settles. What I find is when I’m recharging all the snow settles and I can see things more clearly, much better at recharging.

00;13;53;05 – 00;14;23;05
Peter Anthony
We’ve talked about relationships, but also I find introverts like myself and like many that I’ve worked with over the last 20 years, is that they have a huge amount of passion for list things. I remember I was working with a big mining company recently and it’s headed up by geologists and scientists and this one, one geologist that was coaching, we were talking about what she was doing and down Thomas it’s a what do you do in your downtime?

00;14;23;18 – 00;14;44;09
Peter Anthony
And she’s just like, go home and hang out with my rocks. I always I’ve always loved rocks. She talked about this place in the garage is full of rocks. This is really cool. Like she’s a geologist and she just loves imagining what rocks under the ground and where that could be. Seams of coal, seams of iron ore, where the gas is.

00;14;44;18 – 00;15;07;17
Peter Anthony
And she mentions all this sort of underground world and she loves hanging out with animals. And she’s one of the best geologists in the world because she just she’s really passionate about geology and she has been in her entire life. And I really love that about introverts, because they tend to be really into what they’re into, really passionate about.

00;15;07;17 – 00;15;33;07
Peter Anthony
And they get very they get like an inch wide and a mile deep, which I really love. And that’s the sort of expertize we need. And surface level expertize is in things. And I was even watching, I mean, one of the bizarre things, one of my daughters and I like doing this but like watching these unsolved murders shows where they have like a murder that’s happened like ten years ago and they bring all these experts in to try and fix it and try and solve it.

00;15;33;18 – 00;15;57;08
Peter Anthony
And there’s one particular murder that this expert, they couldn’t solve it because they found these these particular sort of markings on a piece of a piece of steel. And they they found this expert that spent his life studying markings on steel and what makes markings on steel, of course, and intricate. He spent all these time studying markings on steel, which is great.

00;15;57;19 – 00;16;25;09
Peter Anthony
They help solve the crime which which is really cool. And so I think recharging is definitely a strength. I think like deep passion for what you’re doing is a huge strength and listening is a huge strength like listening to what people are saying. And also that the depth of relationships, the huge strengths and the huge strengths that extroverts don’t get anywhere near.

00;16;26;25 – 00;16;45;04
David Hall
I was watching one of your videos and so I was definitely going to ask you about The Passion, because that really stuck out to me because I know that that’s the case for me. What the work I do, whether it be on this podcast or other things, that’s what drives me. And sometimes people are even surprised like, wait, you’re an introvert, how can you get so passionate about something?

00;16;45;04 – 00;16;52;29
David Hall
I’m like, Well, obviously you don’t understand introversion because just talking just a little bit more about that, like how does it drive us to do what we do.

00;16;54;11 – 00;17;22;23
Peter Anthony
With the passion? I think I think what it is, is I think and this this gets back to it’s like to the positive psychology approach to introversion is that I believe we are hardwired to feel good by doing well. And the more we, the more we accept who we are and we express who we are, the happier we’re going to be.

00;17;23;19 – 00;17;47;21
Peter Anthony
Because I remember when I first studied psychology, there was a beautiful phrase from Carl Jung, and he said that there is a there’s an inner self that’s beckoning you on a call to adventure. There’s like an only you know what that adventure is. So when you tap into that, as we do, when we spend our time alone and we recharge, we tapping into what we really love and what we really like, we get deep into it.

00;17;47;29 – 00;18;21;08
Peter Anthony
That’s what makes us really happy because we are we are most expressing ourselves. And I think when introverts are unhappy, I think it’s because we tend to be as optimistic as the extrovert. Extroverts are a lot more optimistic about things, whereas introverts are a little more risk averse and a little more pessimistic or not quite as optimistic. So it makes us appear as if we’re not as happy as the as the extroverts.

00;18;21;14 – 00;18;33;24
Peter Anthony
And that’s the only area I would suggest as an introvert, the introverts we need to think about. That’s our optimism, because we don’t tend to be naturally as optimistic as the extroverts are.

00;18;34;25 – 00;18;55;08
David Hall
Yeah. And with what you were saying is sometimes and I know that this was the case for me for far too long where I was trying to be something I wasn’t. And so maybe I wasn’t pursuing my passion like I should, but when I really got to know who I was and did pursue those things I was passionate about, that’s how my passion really drives me, is by being authentic to myself.

00;18;56;05 – 00;19;20;24
Peter Anthony
Yeah, being authentic and being happy, being happy in yourself. The early troubles, which I found when I was a teenager in my early twenties, was meeting a romantic partner because the women I was meeting were extroverts. I remember one person who I really liked and really cared for, but she wanted to be with me all the time. And I said, I found that exhausting.

00;19;21;08 – 00;19;23;20
David Hall
Just, yeah.

00;19;23;23 – 00;19;48;06
Peter Anthony
And we’re splitting up, unfortunately, because I just could not handle that level of companionship. I needed to recharge a bit, but. But then I think I think that’s what what Shakespeare said to me in Hamlet. There’s a great part of Hamlet early in the play. There’s a character called Polonius who’s advising his son in sunlight. He’s going overseas.

00;19;48;21 – 00;20;14;28
Peter Anthony
And Polonius quite famously says to ladies after the end of all this advice, he says this Above all else to thine own self be true. And that was that was the core of the advice. And if I could be arrogant enough to give advice to my fellow introverts, it would be embrace the introversion, follow that passion. Had those really deep relationships and really enjoy the process and it’s more than okay.

00;20;15;06 – 00;20;15;28
Peter Anthony
It’s the way to live.

00;20;17;02 – 00;20;26;17
David Hall
Well said. That’s brilliant. That’s what this is all about. Let’s get into your book. Collaborate. Deborah Yeah. Tell us about the book, what it’s about, what caused you to write it?

00;20;28;04 – 00;21;05;13
Peter Anthony
Well, I guess it goes back to what we talked about earlier, David. We went when I realized selling, selling wasn’t working. I spent 15 years in big advertising agencies helping make television commercials for the big brands. And I moved into consulting. And again, it was all about sales and I thought, this isn’t working, what does work? And I began developing this idea of collaborative conversations and I thought this there’s a magic in in collaborating for us, for us introverts.

00;21;05;24 – 00;21;32;08
Peter Anthony
And I thought, abracadabra, collaboration, collaborative brother magic and collaborative conversations. And I went back to university or to college to get a master’s degree in communication and study this very closely. And I developed through working with people in workshops, I came in like thousands of people in 12 different countries, primarily introverts. I was working with. I’d say 80% of the people in my programs were introverts.

00;21;32;21 – 00;21;59;05
Peter Anthony
I developed this this collaborative approach to having conversations so that you’re collaborating, which means you’re getting your outcome. They’re getting their outcome. And ideally this approach, social outcome as well. It’s the magic part. Some of that selling something like me, taking something from you or giving you something you don’t really need. It’s a matter of us both achieving something more together than we could separately.

00;21;59;16 – 00;22;23;03
Peter Anthony
That was along with a lot of the work of people like Elinor Ostrom, who was the last woman to win a Nobel Prize for economics. She did a Nobel Prize for prosocial collaboration to the work of Rachel Botsman, who predicted the rise of Airbnb and Uber through the collaborative economy. Because, she said, Look, taxis just aren’t understanding what consumers are looking for, passengers are looking for.

00;22;23;09 – 00;22;48;28
Peter Anthony
And in that spirit, I developed and wrote collaboratively, which is the book of the of the workshops that I run. It follows the process. And that’s well, that’s where it came from. That’s where it came from. It took several years. I didn’t just sit down like a genius and write it all. It took me a while. Yeah, I kept trying and I kept trialing in the workshops because I was running workshops and in the program.

00;22;48;28 – 00;23;07;20
Peter Anthony
So I said, I’d bring along your most difficult clients, most difficult conversations. So let’s, let’s workshop literally workshop them. And I developed the approach for the clients that I was working with. So they got their fingerprints all over it. And the book’s full of stories about clients, their experience, their conversations that I learned over that period of time.

00;23;08;17 – 00;23;18;13
David Hall
A lot of people are trying to do something that doesn’t work, or maybe you might call that the traditional approach. So along with that, how do introverts learn to have more influence?

00;23;19;21 – 00;23;49;23
Peter Anthony
Well, let’s actually have more influence. I’d say it begins with it begins with three intentions, which are easy for introverts to to have. Obviously, the first is having a collaborative intention, like deliberately, obviously publicly being a collaborator. So I’m very keen to collaborate with you, David, to achieve great outcomes that we can have together of authenticity by embracing the introversion, being authentic, introvert, and be optimistic.

00;23;49;23 – 00;24;08;02
Peter Anthony
Which is particularly true for us because as I mentioned earlier, we tend to be a little more realistic or pessimistic than our more extroverted colleagues and the three intentions or mindsets to be thinking about. Then. Then I have six moments that matter in these conversations. And would you like to talk about those?

00;24;08;24 – 00;24;09;20
David Hall
Yeah, absolutely.

00;24;10;23 – 00;24;39;17
Peter Anthony
Okay. Well, the first of those moments takes place before the conversation takes place. And that’s a moment which is which is about setting an outcome or thinking about the goal of the conversation. Because you’re looking towards you, looking towards leaving the people better off after a conversation with you than they were when it started. So thinking you’re asking yourself what’s going to be different about how they’re thinking, how they’re feeling, or what they’re doing in a beneficial way?

00;24;39;17 – 00;25;03;14
Peter Anthony
The how the conversation started. So if you think about think about the feeling, it might be about like them to feel more comfortable with me, more confident with me. I like them to feel like I’m someone they can trust. So it’s it could be a feeling go. It could be a thinking goal. You’d like to change how they’re thinking about something that you’d like to suggest or recommend, or it could be changing a behavioral goal, changing what they’re doing.

00;25;03;14 – 00;25;47;05
Peter Anthony
Maybe they’re they’re following a process or a procedure that that you could recommend it. A change would be beneficial to them. So thinking about that first and that’s the that’s where it starts and where the conversation’s going to begin. And also you’re looking at developing a commitment curve. So over a series of conversations as you’re developing a relationship and all the good research on relationships is the quality of relationships, is the quality of the conversations, even the work of John Gottman at Washington State University in romantic relationships, he content analyzes how couples talk to each other and he can predict whether the couple will stay together or not based on just on the conversation.

00;25;47;14 – 00;26;25;17
Peter Anthony
Three Quite extraordinary. So you’ve got the goal first, then you’re meeting, you get the face-to-face part and you begin relating. And what we like to talk about in Clever Deborah, is you listen until you disappear, which is easy for introverts. We like disappearing, so we are just fully immersing ourselves in the other person by giving them all of our attention and what the good research suggests is that when people feel like they’ve got your full attention and you adjust your style, this is a much more willing and able to adjust their thinking to set goals, and they continue.

00;26;25;17 – 00;26;45;22
Peter Anthony
So you give them your full attention. The third step is giving the taking the lead or giving the conversation some structure, and you’re answering for primary questions the other person has, which is why is the conversation taking place? What outcome I’ll be looking towards achieving together? How do we plan to get there in the structure of the conversation?

00;26;46;01 – 00;27;11;06
Peter Anthony
And so what’s next? How does this fit into an overall relationship, a commercial relationship that you and I having same? I’d say like if I was having a conversation with you, David, like I am to help, I might say, look, David, let’s, let’s have the reason why having this conversation is that we would share some ideas on how introverts can maximize their potential.

00;27;11;06 – 00;27;37;25
Peter Anthony
The way I thought we could do this is you can ask me some questions about my experience introverts. I can give you my ideas of perspectives. Then the listeners may achieve some outcomes. How does that sounds? That sounds terrific. So then we can create something that will be really worthwhile and make a contribution to introverts. So I’m giving the conversation some structure and and then we get into it a moment for I think up to four.

00;27;38;06 – 00;27;38;26
David Hall
Yeah, I think so.

00;27;39;01 – 00;28;05;02
Peter Anthony
And I’ve been for and it could only be a minute in at this stage and each of us like this, it’s all about questions, not about, not about talking about asking questions and you want to understand if you think about that goal we talked about earlier, you attempting to influence a decision like if you’re influencing somebody, you’re attempting to change a decision that they’re making or influence a decision they’re making.

00;28;05;02 – 00;28;25;00
Peter Anthony
So before you can influence a decision, you’ve got to understand, well, how do they make decisions now? And you think, well, we do ask questions about what sort of criteria they’re using, which is the first part. Like I said, say, David, when you’re thinking about buying a new washing machine or a new car or a new conveyor belt system or a new truck, what sort of things are important to you?

00;28;25;00 – 00;28;51;00
Peter Anthony
So I get your criteria. Then I’m going to ask what order they’re in from from top to bottom, because often introverts will give the most important one last and extroverts, but the most important 1/1. Then you say, Hey, what does that mean? I just say, for example, I’m I’m selling a new software system to you. You might say, look, the most important thing to us is security.

00;28;51;19 – 00;29;08;00
Peter Anthony
And because I think you are linguistically, I’m going to think security means what my definition is. You could have a quite a different definition. So I said, What is security mean to you? Like, what does that mean? So you might say cost effectiveness. I’m really curious, David, what does cost effectiveness mean for you? So I’m getting the meaning part.

00;29;08;13 – 00;29;39;29
Peter Anthony
And the final one, the final thing we need to understand is what questions were asking us about what should we do most to avoid? You want to avoid the most because often people will do more to avoid something than gain something, like avoid a mistake, and particularly us introverts, avoiding mistakes, avoiding problems. People know those things and then we package that up, like what the criteria are, what order in what they mean, what we should do most of avoid.

00;29;40;10 – 00;30;03;28
Peter Anthony
And then we can, we can we can then make a recommendation based on their criteria. We’re not making recommendation. I like because maybe the recommendation is that we don’t proceed with often when I’m working with clients, I’m looking towards talking them out of working with me, which is really crazy because I don’t want to work with people that won’t work because my biggest sales team is my clients.

00;30;05;14 – 00;30;29;03
Peter Anthony
So I want it to work. I don’t want it to not work. I don’t want to get flown to somewhere and run workshops in different countries and it not work. That’s very embarrassing and it’s bad for business. So oh for my sake, I want it to work. So make a recommendation ideally based on their criteria or maybe I might need to change one of their criteria because maybe they don’t know.

00;30;29;03 – 00;30;53;00
Peter Anthony
There’s this some thinking with some research or some approaches that work, because often if you’re recommending something, you’re working at space over time, but they may not know as much as you particular about each of you’d like to know it. A little bit of an idea because you’re going to drill right into the things, say, make your recommendation and finally reach an agreement which might be a yes, let’s proceed, might be a no, which I really like.

00;30;53;00 – 00;31;18;05
Peter Anthony
I like those because I think too many of us spend too much time pretending things are going to save them. They both know they’re not going to proceed. Well, that could be a maybe of it’s a maybe there’s a simple negotiating process we can take where we we both end up better off and all the way through. We carry those same intentions we carry through the collaboration we carry through the authenticity and we carry through the optimism.

00;31;18;05 – 00;31;33;22
Peter Anthony
Optimism is, you know, you and I can have conversations and we can both be better off and build a relationship ship and enjoy the process. And what a beautiful way to be. Yeah, just doing that. Does that make sense? It’s like a whole the whole thing in a very small nutshell.

00;31;34;06 – 00;31;51;15
David Hall
Yeah, I love it. And it’s, it’s such a good point. It’s, you know, too often if you’re just trying to get me to do something for your benefit, it’s not going to work for me. You know, I’m going to want to take the approach like you’re describing where that works for both of us and just really.

00;31;51;15 – 00;31;52;02
Peter Anthony

00;31;52;02 – 00;31;52;25
David Hall
Pays off.

00;31;53;25 – 00;32;27;14
Peter Anthony
And it tends to work. I mentioned earlier, David, that most of the people I work with are insured, particularly technical professionals and it tends to have better for them because they’re never selling in this approach. It’s always about a relationship with the person and they get to go first. So you spending most of your time asking questions like in a a 90 minute conversation, you’re spending is spending, say, 80 minutes of it asking questions which is more comfortable for us.

00;32;27;20 – 00;32;33;11
Peter Anthony
And that’s why I like the approach because it’s mainly question driven, not segment driven.

00;32;34;13 – 00;32;49;00
David Hall
Yeah. And we’re thinking, right, so, so I know that that is my approach as well. I am going to ask people lots of questions because I’m trying to get to know them and what they need, just like you’re describing. And I think as introverts we can be very good at that.

00;32;50;02 – 00;33;24;25
Peter Anthony
Yeah, we’re a lot more curious with a better asking questions. We like to go deeper into something. And the other part of recommendations, I think it’s important for us fellow introverts to remember is when you’re making recommendations that are like presentations, it’s useful if there’s stories as opposed to PowerPoint decks, because the beauty I find with stories like in making a pitch or making a recommendation is that there’s this part of a story which is called narrative transportation.

00;33;25;14 – 00;33;45;09
Peter Anthony
And the best way I can describe it is if you’re watching a movie, a really good movie, you get transport into the movie and feel like you’re part of it in a bizarre sort of way. Like you could be in a cinema watching a movie or at home watching Netflix. And if you’re watching like the last great movie I watched was the latest top movie with Tom Cruise.

00;33;45;21 – 00;34;07;03
Peter Anthony
And I felt the thrill of being in those gents. It felt a bit scared, a bit anxious, because you can see these guys flying it. So when you tell a good story to somebody, they get transported into the stories. That takes the attention of you. That’s why I like a storytelling approach to making presentations, because it takes the pressure off me.

00;34;07;03 – 00;34;36;22
Peter Anthony
They get transported into the story and the belief gets suspended. So. So then I can make recommendations, which they could be happier, happier with if they trust me, if I’ve got more favorite relationship with, I believe I’d like to make both better off. I’ve got that collaborative spirit, but get engaged in the story. So I also recommend storytelling like strategic commercial storytelling, trust introverts to rather than using a PowerPoint deck, which I hate.

00;34;38;01 – 00;34;41;20
David Hall
Yes, stories are powerful. And what does make a good story?

00;34;42;24 – 00;35;09;11
Peter Anthony
What makes a good story is to remember, is to remember that the core, if you think of any great movie that you’ve seen, you think, what can we learn from that really great story that they’re all the same. You get introduced to a hero that you like in the movie or in the show, and that hero wants something that they’re going to desire, like in a Top Gun case.

00;35;09;11 – 00;35;32;19
Peter Anthony
Tom Cruise wanted to be relevant again and embrace embrace America. And and look at that whole the whole freedom idea, which was terrific. But something was getting in his way. In his case. He was getting old. He was getting less relevant. He was flying a plane that was older than the current technology. So there’s something the hero wants, but they can’t have it.

00;35;33;17 – 00;35;58;13
Peter Anthony
And then the story becomes how they how they they get what they want after a series of challenges. Okay. That’s the structure of stories. How do I do that? How I do that is I make my my client, my customer the hero of the story. Okay. So you’re looking for something, David. You’re looking for X, whatever X might be.

00;35;59;00 – 00;36;29;02
Peter Anthony
But there’s a reason you can’t have it or you’re not getting it is what you want is why you wanted. But there’s a reason why I haven’t made a decision yet. They can’t get it that I introduce my approach or what I’m recommending as part of that solution for you. So I understand you like the if you look at the like I do the exit research of what clients and customers look for in commercial relationships, the number one thing they’re looking for is someone with a unique understanding of their needs and their environment.

00;36;30;12 – 00;36;57;00
Peter Anthony
So people you’re working with, I want you to uniquely understand their needs and their environment. So I’m saying I understand you, David. He’s what you’re looking for. He’s why you want that. But here’s why you’re not getting or haven’t got it so far. So let’s tell a story or use a story as a way of helping David overcome the obstacles he has between what he wants and why.

00;36;57;01 – 00;37;20;26
Peter Anthony
Can’t have it and get him the the desired outcome. That’s how the story works. And I always speak in the same way. So ideally the customer or the other person is the center of the story. Sometimes it could be the the customer’s customer like I do. I’ve done a lot of working with big retailers for example, and they’re talking about shoppers coming into stores.

00;37;21;13 – 00;37;33;28
Peter Anthony
What is that shopper looking for and how do we improve that shopping or buying experience? That’s the same for everything. Photocopiers, car shops, mining equipment. It’s all the same because it’s human beings.

00;37;34;18 – 00;37;40;11
David Hall
So you’re making them the hero. And the other piece of that is you’re not the hero, right?

00;37;40;29 – 00;38;00;25
Peter Anthony
You’re never the hero. And that’s why introverts make great storytellers, because extroverts, the heroes, learn to write. And I know some very famous who I won’t name, some very famous extroverts that are in leadership positions or potential leadership positions in America. And whenever you hear them talking, it’s always about themselves.

00;38;02;04 – 00;38;21;26
David Hall
Right? Right. Okay. So here’s the other question about storytelling. Can an introvert, how can they improve their storytelling? And I know that sometimes we may have more beautiful stories in our rich imaginations, but we may struggle to get those out. How can we improve in being a better storyteller as of right if we’re not already?

00;38;22;15 – 00;38;45;03
Peter Anthony
Well, I challenge whether we are great storytellers because I think we are but for some, some strange reason in our personal lives, we tend to listen to and tell stories like when meet with friends, we catch up. We’re telling stories to each other and we’re watching stories like in movies and Netflix shows. But when we get to work, we feel like all the story part shuts down, but we don’t communicate that way.

00;38;45;03 – 00;39;15;12
Peter Anthony
So step one is, I’d say, embrace the fact that stories are the best communication tool to transfer an idea. In fact, before, like the 1700s, the only way we transferred ideas to each other was by way of stories. I read some interesting an interesting book recently on the evolution of the brain, and they talked about stories and they said they have recently looked at these caves like weathers, where pitches are painted inside caves like pitches of of mouses or animals and bisons and all these sorts of things.

00;39;15;20 – 00;39;35;22
Peter Anthony
And they found the pitches inside caves were were drawn in parts where the cave echoed the most because there were people in the cave telling the story about what these pitches. But it’s like an ancient movie that once here’s the picture able to tell you the story and they they they drew those in the parts of the cave echoed the most because it gave it the most drama.

00;39;36;00 – 00;39;56;28
Peter Anthony
So I’d say, number one, embrace the fact that stories are the best way to communicate ideas. Number to think about that structure I just told you, which is the structure of who’s the hero? Who’s the hero? What do they want, which is question number two. And why can’t they have it, which is question number three. So who are they?

00;39;56;28 – 00;40;16;26
Peter Anthony
What do they want? Then why can’t they have it? And then what is it about what you’re suggesting or offering or talking about, which is part of the solution for them? You haven’t got that. You haven’t got a story. If you can’t make a recommendation that works of better for them, you shouldn’t be talking to them because they’re not that a lot of perspective, business partner or relationship for you.

00;40;17;20 – 00;40;37;06
Peter Anthony
Then practice telling stories and what I do and I wish I could show it. I could I could give you the evidence right in front of me. I keep a storytelling journal I write down. I’ve got like a couple of hundred of them in the back of my binder and I’m running workshops and coaching and I write down stories, other people’s stories.

00;40;37;06 – 00;40;56;14
Peter Anthony
I hear stories I’ve told that worked stories I watch and I write them down and I access me until I see stories because I know in my workshops I ask people, I bump into people all the time that I’ve been in workshops that I’ve run. And they say, Peter, I’ll never forget the story of X. Now tell me the story that I told.

00;40;57;23 – 00;41;31;20
Peter Anthony
They’ll forget what I said, but remember the story. So till embrace stories as you know, or a great communication to keep a storytelling journal and practice telling stories was practice it and you’ve either at the beginning of presentations or of the entire presentation. Watch how much more influential you’ll be. People will lead into the story. I notice them the leading role when I’m telling a story and if I get PowerPoint, I lean back and I suggest use as little PowerPoint as possible.

00;41;32;15 – 00;42;00;17
David Hall
Yeah, I think that was all such great advice because sometimes people might think that, oh, you know, stories isn’t part of this, but like you said, it’s so important and I love the idea of capturing those stories. Part of this podcast, I learn other people’s stories, which I love. And, you know, I’ve learned some stories from you today, which I will remember, but I know I could do a better job of capturing the different things that happened to me, but also they happen to other people.

00;42;00;17 – 00;42;01;27
David Hall
So that is great advice.

00;42;02;22 – 00;42;28;02
Peter Anthony
If you look at the great leaders like I have and how they communicate ideas, they communicate ideas and stories. We mentioned Elon Musk earlier. I mean, when he was starting the boring company is looking for investors in the boring company to build tunnels under under Los Angeles. He was a huge investment conference and they so tell us about the boring company and he said, look, you’ve got to think about it like this.

00;42;28;02 – 00;43;01;28
Peter Anthony
He said, there’s a snail in SpongeBob SquarePants that my kids and my kids, they love watching that show. And I’ve got I’ve got that snail or an image of that side of my office. And the interviewer said, why it? And he said, because the the fastest boring machines travel slower than the fastest snail. So my mission at the boring company is to make our boring machines go faster than a snail.

00;43;02;15 – 00;43;30;06
Peter Anthony
And that was awesome before and a great story because it just stayed with you think, wow he’s this technological genius happens to be an inch of it too. That’s good. Pitching a whole business idea using the story of a snail, which is quite extraordinary. And that just stuck with me. I thought, this is beautiful. The web is if you listen to any of the great communicators, the great leaders, they’ll talk in analogies, they’ll talk in stories.

00;43;31;12 – 00;43;54;04
Peter Anthony
They’ll really talk like in the direct set of facts. And they’ll never pull out a PowerPoint presentation. And the reason they’re at the top is that’s how they communicate. Introverts, extroverts. At the same time, Mark Zuckerberg does the same. Another self-confessed introvert, he does the same. He he talks in metaphors and stories. J.K. Rowling, look at Harry Potter books.

00;43;54;04 – 00;44;09;21
Peter Anthony
How much imagination is in those books? She’s at each event full of stories. Meryl Streep, one of the best actress of all time. The best actors of all time. She spends her life using movies to tell stories. So there’s there’s no excuse for us introverts not telling great stories.

00;44;10;15 – 00;44;26;15
David Hall
For some reason. I think some people think that their stories don’t want to be heard, whatever misconceptions they got off on. So this is such a great reminder that it is what is impactful and we need to do that and not give the boring PowerPoint.

00;44;27;21 – 00;44;52;18
Peter Anthony
Exactly, exactly. Exactly. And if you think about I mean, I think I believe and I know from from the psychometric research that that we we by we, I mean us introverts, we are less optimistic than our extroverted colleagues. And if you think about if I can give you, I guess, one last tip or one last piece of advice, your optimism is an explanatory style.

00;44;52;18 – 00;45;11;18
Peter Anthony
It’s the way that you explain things to yourself and others, and that’s acquired. It’s not innate, is not in your DNA. You learn how to explain things to yourself and others. And there’s three key questions that you ask as a as an introvert or as an extrovert, particularly as an introvert about when bad events happen or are likely to happen.

00;45;11;18 – 00;45;41;01
Peter Anthony
You think, how long will it last? What else gets affected and who’s in charge? And I say introverts like to think when bad events happening, it last a bit longer and reflect a bit more. And I’m not in charge. It’s being done to me or around me. So if you want to think about becoming a bit more optimistic as the introvert think, well, when these bad events happen or that are likely to happen, or I think they may happen, I’m going to try and limit their impact and affect that much and to try and shorten the time.

00;45;41;17 – 00;46;01;21
Peter Anthony
And I’m going to realize that I’m always in charge of how I think there’s always a gap between what happens in my life and how I respond to it. Then that gap is, is your freedom as a as an introvert to make more optimistic choices and get more of the life that you deserve. And that’s just not my ideas.

00;46;02;04 – 00;46;12;17
Peter Anthony
If you want to check this out, look at the work of a guy called Martin Seligman. You see ill. I learned optimism. It’s a beautiful approach to take.

00;46;12;17 – 00;46;16;04
David Hall
Yeah, I would recommend that. Do that enough. Yes, it’s great stuff.

00;46;16;13 – 00;46;36;10
Peter Anthony
It’s really good stuff for us. I think. I loved it. I love that book and really enjoys his work. And the bizarre thing to Dove David, it was really strange. I went to a conference where somebody was speaking, right, and it was talking about optimism and he said, Look, I know there’s some pessimists out. He said, You pessimists, if you’ve got a question, here’s my email address.

00;46;36;22 – 00;46;55;12
Peter Anthony
Send me an email. Answer it right up, oblique if he’s not going to answer my question. So I went to the comments at lunchtime. I got his email address. I sent him a question by email, write two or 3 minutes later, a response back just like that. Hi Peter, this is Marty. Marty Seligman, go and answer my question.

00;46;55;19 – 00;46;57;27
Peter Anthony
How cool is that? I thought.

00;46;58;08 – 00;46;58;13
David Hall
It was.

00;46;58;13 – 00;47;07;15
Peter Anthony
Lovely me to get answered by him, but he was just proving his point. Yeah. If you think optimistically, I think he’s going to answer. He’s going to answer. And he did a.

00;47;08;25 – 00;47;26;01
David Hall
Peter, this has been such a wonderful conversation, especially gearing things towards introverts and how we can collaborate and have influence and really bring the power of storytelling into all of this. Where can people find out more about the great work that you’re doing?

00;47;27;01 – 00;47;52;24
Peter Anthony
Well, they can find out. They can check out my book, Collaborative. Right, which we talked about earlier, David, the magic of collaborative conversation. It’s available anywhere you regularly get books or you can check me out at Peter Anthony Consulting that’s my website and what I’ll do. I can send you the link to a couple of videos that I’ve made on on introverts as well that will help just get you thinking about about this space.

00;47;53;20 – 00;48;07;08
Peter Anthony
I am an introvert. I love working with introverts. And it’s been absolute delight to submit you, David, to share these ideas with your listeners. And I genuinely hope that you folks have got some value.

00;48;07;15 – 00;48;12;25
David Hall
Thank you so much. Peter and I will put all that information in the show notes. Thanks again for this great conversation.

00;48;13;26 – 00;48;16;08
Peter Anthony
Absolutely a pleasure.

00;48;16;27 – 00;48;37;10
David Hall
Thank you so much for joining me. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out to David at Queens Junction or check out the quiet and strong dot com website, which includes blog posts, links to social media and other items. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you’re interested in getting to know yourself better.

00;48;37;10 – 00;49;05;27
David Hall
There’s now a free type finder personality assessment on the quiet and strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the four letter Myers-Briggs code. A lot of link to the show notes. There’s so many great things about being an introvert, so we need those to be understood. Get to know your introverted strengths and needs and be strong.

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